Ep 67: When “Helpful” Feedback is Hurtful

This week, we’re sharing an excerpt from one of our “Shared Agreements” videos of Racial Justice Launch Pad, a recently-released Joyous Justice program. April and Tracie discuss the dynamics of power and privilege baked into the well-known phrase “the customer is always right.” They also unpack the pattern of being “helpful” by giving (critical) feedback. They teach us what it can look like when we give feedback that is mindful and relational.

Check out our discussion/reflection questions for this episode:  https://joyousjustice.com/blog/jews-talk-racial-justice-ep-67

Find April and Tracie's full bios and submit topic suggestions for the show at
www.JewsTalkRacialJustice.com

Learn more about Joyous Justice where April is the founding and fabulous (!) director, and Tracie is a senior partner.: https://joyousjustice.com/

Read more of Tracie’s thoughts at her blog: https://www.bmoreincremental.com/

Support the work our Jewish Black & Native woman-led vision for collective liberation here: https://joyousjustice.com/support-our-work

Learn more about Racial Justice Launch Pad and join the waitlist: https://joyousjustice.com/racial-justice-launch-pad

Read more about the history of “The customer is always right”: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_customer_is_always_right

Learn more about Martin Buber’s book and philosophy I and Thou: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_and_Thou

Read more about the cultural history of “mansplaining”: https://www.theatlantic.com/sexes/archive/2012/11/a-cultural-history-of-mansplaining/264380/

Transcript

0:00

- [Tracie] This week, we're sharing with you excerpts from a course video about mindful feedback and the way that power and privilege shows up even when we aren't thinking about it. Consider this a sneak peek of our brand new offering'Racial Justice Launch Pad'.- [April] This is 'Jews Talk Racial Justice' with April and Tracie.- [Tracie] A weekly show hosted by April Baskin and Tracie Guy-Decker.- [April] In a complex world change takes courage.- [Tracie] Wholehearted relationships can keep us accountable.- Okay, welcome back for part two of shared agreements. We are very excited to share some solid thought leadership around mindful and relational feedback that I think will be helpful for your leadership in general and will also support all of us and making the most of this experience together through our 'Racial Justice Launch Pad'. The realm of giving feedback, particularly critical feedback. Like every other facet of our lives is a place where we want to strive to be accountable and in alignment with racial justice and anti-racism principles. And I find often today, this is a realm where particularly for white folks but also folks with other non target or majority or oppressor group identities also can be more thoughtful about this. In short, the idea here is that feedback is an opportunity to practice mindfulness and to deepen relationship with folks. And there are some predominant beliefs and patterns that aren't helpful and that actually can be really damaging to relationships. And so we want to offer alternatives and suggestions and framings to support you in either further bolstering your already existing great skills in this area or to give you a range of tools to help you up level. And shift from giving less effective feedback to more effective feedback.- I think it's really easy to imagine and to think that... I'm talking mainly to white folks now. That pursuing racial justice and the concerns of power and privilege are things that show up in the boardroom or on the street or in city hall or at the state house or wherever. Wherever those like places of power or protests. And what we're saying in this video and throughout is actually... It happens everywhere. Every time you have two people, there is power and privilege and we often... I'm using a big we. This is white folks, Jews, Americans in general, we often provide feedback because we want to be helpful. That's what we think we're doing but we're not examining the power and the privilege of that helpfulness. And so this is an invitation and we're gonna get into that a little bit more. But I wanna sort of place that in your mind that this is an invitation to actually get curious about how the things that you're gonna be learning in this program play out everywhere including places you weren't thinking about.- Yeah, thank you. So the place where I often like to start with this is to provide some historical context. That one of the underlying beliefs that I see playing out. That I think heavily informs at times, the way people give feedback is this belief that to quote unquote,'The customer is always right,' right? So I want to unpack this a little bit and start from that place because I think both with the customer is always right and even if you don't have that exact mindset, I think there's a similar dynamic perhaps inspired by that belief of, if I have feedback, there's a bit of a dynamic around self-righteousness of because I have a thought and it is in the form of feedback. And often this isn't conscious but it translates as that means I get to say it however I feel comfortable and justified to say it. I can have whatever perspective I want and I can say it in a way that is harsher than I would speak to a supervisor, that I would speak to an elder, than I would speak to somebody I respect and love. Tracie, did you wanna add something here?- [Tracie] I wanted to use the word entitlement. I think that is carried with what you were just describing. I have this thought and because I'm the customer I'm entitled to share it and demand it.- [April] Yeah, demand. Right, it can come out as a demand, right? And I think that underneath that part of those behaviors are buttressed or supported by this belief that the customer is always right. So I wanted to unpack that a bit and say that this concept is attributed to a few different white men and retailers such as Harry Gordon Selfridge, John Wanamaker and Marshall field. And was developed around 1909. And what I find interesting is that on the Wikipedia page, I appreciated that in the second paragraph, it even says right here,"However it was pointed out as early as 1914, that this view ignores the customers can be dishonest, have unrealistic expectations and or try to misuse a product in ways that void the guarantee." And here's a quick little mini lesson I want to do about that. What was happening in 1909? Jim Crow was happening in 1909. Not only in 1909 but throughout the decades and even today studies show that when a customer is a person of color, particularly black but not exclusively, the customer is always right principle doesn't really apply. So one of the sayings that I've been starting to say is this concept of a customer is always right came about when the customers who were considered respected and worthy of being right, we're always white.- [Tracie] Right.- [April Right? So there's inherently a racist history and dynamic that was playing out at that time. And also, I just wanna identify too that and how it's played out as we were referencing earlier, there's different classist and oppressive dynamics about what people deem is acceptable behavior or treatment of different people associated with different classes and strata of society. And that there's a dynamic to me that's also playing out in this belief that it's acceptable. Again, I don't think most people consciously think this although some do but it's acceptable to treat a working class person poorly in a way that we would never treat people who we respect. So I also wanna name that. The other thing that I want to name here is that this concept... To me, what is behind this concept and what I posit is that what's the purpose of this? What purpose does it serve? And the purpose of the customer is always right in the context of retail was profit. The desired outcome was for the companies to make profit and to please the customer potentially at the expense of working class folks who were working in that store to make a profit.- What I wanna add is when I think about unexamined feedback that I have given in the past and what I see the pattern, it often takes the form of,"You're doing it wrong because it's not the way I would do it," right? In my head I can hear family members saying,"Look at this sandwich." At my house we don't... Whatever, put mayonaise on both sides. Whatever it is (laughs). I don't know. But I actually can hear that in my memory of...- Look at the direction of this toilet paper. Look at how this dishwasher is loaded.- Exactly. You're doing it wrong'cause it's not the way I would do it. I have an argument regularly with my partner where I'll be doing something and he says,"When I fold the clothes, I do it this way." As if I should then change the (laughs) way I fold the clothes. To which I say,"That's cool, I'm doing it my way," right? Because of the customer is always right and the entitlement that I named and that April has been describing you're doing it wrong because it's not the way I would do it, follows with an expectation that the person you're talking to will change the way they do it to the way you do it. And I think it's... When I lay it out that plainly, I hope it's easy to see. That is not a recipe.- Right.- That pattern is not a recipe for real relationship nor change nor intercultural competence.- And its a clear descendant of servitude and enslavement of whatever I want should go and you, another human dehumanized person are going to do whatever I need because I have money.- Right.- Sometimes not even or privileged identity.- So to bring the Jewish framing into it, I think it's... This clearly is resonant with what Martin Buber taught us about the difference between I-it and I-thou. So when I say to you,"I don't like the way you're doing that, you need to change it to the way I do it." I am treating you as an it. And if I can reorient to an I-thou so that you are a fully human other and not a dehumanized other then it becomes clear how the results that April just described that she wanted, that we're in this together is easier to hold and to pursue. When I treat this as an I-thou relationship, whatever the feedback or the service or the whatever. And I find if I'm able to do that often whatever that change was that I was looking for, it's not needed. And you know, if it is still needed, then I start to get at what piece of it is needed because I can't do what I want to do. And what piece of it is just my preference and I can let go.- One of the recommendations we have around the best practice is to always endeavor to keep in mind, power and privilege and equity. What are the different histories and resourcing or lack thereof involved in the background or not so much background. In the foreground for each of us in this exchange.- So April and I took a course of masterclass together in productivity within the past year. And when we first got started, I got to admit I wasn't sold. April super excited and so I was doing it with her but I was not sold on the coach.- Love you Tracie (laughs) She really wasn't.- I really wasn't.- She was down for the cause.(laughs)- But April wanted to do it. And so, okay. And I just wasn't convinced that this guy... Out to be honest, I was not convinced that this man had anything to teach me. That's where I was. And when I logged into his course portal and it was a lot of videos, like a lot a lot (laughs). And I'm a reader I like to read. And so I often will turn on subtitles or sometimes I'll just read the transcript and not actually watch the video or read it while I... Somehow I like to actually read the words. There were no subtitles. And there were no transcripts. And friends I got real indignant (scoffs). This guy doesn't know what he's doing. He doesn't even have subtitles. I've got these dozens of videos that I can't learn like this. And I started... One of his team members reached out to me to make sure I had everything that I needed. And I was like,"Actually I don't where are the transcripts?" And this poor fellow was like,"I'm not sure if we have them, let me check." And I just kept... You know how it goes folks. I fed my entitled righteous indignation that I was so much better than this guy. That he didn't know what he was doing. And if he did it my way, it would be better. But April was into it. So I reluctantly kept watching the videos. And I'm glad that I did because one of the very first videos I watched was a video about radical responsibility. That basically said,"You don't have control over anybody but you, so what experience do you want to have?" And I really heard it. And I looked at the videos and I was like, "I can do this." I don't have any hearing impairment. I don't need subtitles because I cannot hear the audio. I just like to read better. And when I really dug into it, am I helping this guy? Am I helping myself by sitting up on this high horse about how I would do it differently? And he ought, ought with a capital 'o' to have transcripts and closed captioning, who am I helping? And the answer is actually no one. And once I really saw that, I was like,"Okay, I got it. I gotta watch his videos." And you know what? That guy had a lot to teach me. I learned so so much. And I'm so grateful that we did that course. It really transformed the way that I work. It was really amazing. And I never would have gotten there if I had allowed myself to stay in that self righteous indignation where he wasn't it to me and not a Thou And actually I really... Not closely but I've stayed in touch with him. We're connected on Facebook and in other ways and I've offered to help him copy edit a book he's working on. I'm now in relationship with this person because I decided to take radical responsibility in that moment. So I'm sharing this story. I hope that it sounds resonant in that sort of indignation. I know that is not the first moment I have been on that high horse (laughs). And so maybe it sounds familiar to you,- Thank you for sharing.- I just wanted to share that specific experience because I think that it was an important lesson for me in a lot of ways in thinking about feedback and helpfulness. I did tell him that if someone comes through who needs closed captioning because they do have a some sort of hearing loss or disability then you might need to think about that but that's for him to work on that. That's actually not mine to hold. Thank you for letting me share that April. I hope that resonates with you friends.- Yeah. And I think this is bringing up a few different things. There's a couple of different pieces here that I also want to lift up around that I find that more effective feedback is typically around people taking ownership of their own experience and also giving space for other people to take ownership of their experience, right? So a variation of Tracie's stories was if she started in saying,"Well, this isn't good for this group of people." There's a way that there's also a saviorism dynamic there and also saviorism dynamic in general or a subtle often not conscious superiority dynamic around what's helpful. And one thing I do want to say both specifically for this program but also in general if you're working with other folks of color or anyone who's a part of a marginalized identity, is that at times there can be a pattern that shows up around thinking that one is being helpful. But I have to tell you as a person of color and specifically in this program and having led a number of programs that the feedback I received from folks when it's in the helpful category are things that I have already thought about well about. And I've already intentionally designed this program in particular ways and people when they think they're being helpful, aren't. I think if I didn't... If I were more confident when... I think you could even at times be classified as a bit insulting. I don't read it as that because I read it as someone else doing the best with the knowledge and understanding they have. And they don't realize that my knowledge is a lot more advanced than that. And I have already accounted for four times, whatever they're thinking of but there's... Tracie I think you speak to this well but there's a way that people with certain privileged identities around certain things and as we will get into later in the program, every human just about on this planet holds both privileged and oppressed identities. So when we say that, we say that open-heartedly and holistically but in certain dynamics some of our identities come through more than others. And that's more of a privileged pattern as opposed to at times, people who have less privileged identities, who have a very different mindset of,"I may get feedback but also I'm going to either trust or just go through this and move through this and listen and learn and fully experience it and have some humility around it before I offer feedback."- I think that the being helpful or the desire to be helpful also is a cultural pattern for Jews. For Ashkenazi Jews in particular. In part because of our long history of being sort of the middle agent role in society, where being helpful helped us survive. Being helpful to those in power. And so it is a pattern that we have inherited and one that we can examine.- That I think it's worth examining. And I think at times is worth putting down. I think that obviously in healthy, useful ways, being helpful can be useful. But what I would say is that I had a thought that I think might be helpful for some and might be a little triggering or annoying for others. But I think it still is somewhat useful. Is that I think the dynamic we're talking about here across lines of difference or just in the context of client versus service provider, is sort of similar to a dynamic around mansplaining. Where a person is thinking they're being helpful but the other person... But it's assuming a lack of knowledge and agency and insight on the part of the other person. And again...- That's great. That's a great analogy. That's a good analogy- And so that at times is what I and other folks and also even in supervisory scenarios, which is where curiosity can be so helpful to ask more questions and allow the person to share with their knowing and thinking.- Another component of it is what I named earlier about where if my helpfulness is to help someone who is different than me be more like me, that's not actually helpful.- The last piece that I wanted to mention is just to share an example of what a great form of feedback looks like. A participant in one of our programs earlier this year noted that we scheduled a class, a live class on a day of honoring and celebrating and remembrance for a targeted identity that they have. And they didn't have to be honestly. Actually, but they wrote a very thoughtful note to us. As a person who has this identity and said,"There's a number of different people who have this identity in our program. And I'm just wondering what some of the options might be and I'm messaging you." Now, the other thing is that they saw this in advanced and they messaged us a few weeks ahead of time."No need to get back immediately."I know that you're a startup organization"and you're juggling a lot right now"but if and when you have the chance you can get back to me,"I would appreciate it."- They also said,"If it's not possible, I will watch the recording." Great. So they offered a solution.- Yes.- That didn't involve us.- Thank you.- It did not involve 'Joyous Justice' making changes.- Right, Yeah. They did. And we wrote back and thanked them for bringing this to our attention. It was an issue that both directly affected them and also did sincerely affect a number of people in the program in a way that would put them in a position where they would have to choose between acknowledging this targeted identity and or... And some of them might've had no problem with it but it was something... This was in the realm of very effective feedback. This was something that we'd missed unintentionally and that we were very appreciative of them bringing it to our attention. And it was just also icing on the cake and spoke so well of this person in their leadership. That they were so kind because they didn't have to be. If they'd sent us a slightly perturbed email, I would have frankly understood it. And I still apologize either way but they'd clearly been doing their own work. Likely honestly in their life, more broadly and also around this to process it and to check in to realize what was most important to them and what were solutions they had. And we also went out of our way and rescheduled, added an additional class, sent out a public acknowledgement of this. Ask them for their permission if they were fine being acknowledged. But what I want to identify here is that the way they approached it enabled us to feel comfortable to partner with them around weighing in on how we do it. When feedback comes in this format, I mean, I guess some people don't like it but our team especially we want to continue to be better and grow and have our programs, be as accessible as they can be. And so again, it just further reiterate my point about feedback at its best. It's an opportunity for growth and deeper relationship and collective advancement, Tracie.- Yeah, in a nutshell, what was so wonderful about that feedback was that clearly we were all on the same team and it was not adversarial in a nutshell. I mean and that's not where I was when I was complaining about this productivity coach. It was very much me versus him when I was giving feedback about the lack of transcripts and to me that is the core. There are other details but that's the core of the difference is that feedback was given in such a way that we were in this together as opposed to I think you screwed up.- Right. And the other piece that I want to say here, which I'm thinking a number of you. You might be thinking about at it this moment, I don't want what we're saying to be conflated as tone policing. What we're talking about here is the most effective form of communication. Particularly this person who had this identity. It's an identity that is deeply targeted by violence and oppression and suppression in a variety of different forms. And so if they had come to me... If they'd come to us angry, it would have been a little harder for us to process but I would have complete... It would just sort of taken a little bit more time but I would not have made them wrong. From a place of power, when people communicate feedback less effectively, I both may have a critique of different oppressive patterns they're playing out and usually there's some sort of restorative justice or trauma informed analysis that I bring to that. That doesn't shame or blame them that may say,"wow! that was very hurtful. And I experience that as racism or I experience that as over the top emotion." But that likely means that this is reminding them of something important in their life. I look forward to you having a chance to digest this. And for us playing out these insights and starting to learn more about them and lean into them as we progress in the program. This isn't a final note but an opening to this conversation and it's all open for additional questions and engagement and we get to engage and learn about all of this together.- [April] Thanks to for tuning in. Our show's theme music was composed by Elliot Hammer. You can find this track and other beats on Instagram at Elliot Hammer. If this episode resonated with you, please share it and subscribe. To join the conversation visit jewstalkracialjustice.com, where you can send us a question or suggestion, access our show notes and learn more about our team. Take care until next time and stay humble and keep going.