In this week’s episode April and Tracie continue to explore their thoughts around Thanksgiving and the tension between a holiday about gratitude and family and its racist, genocidal origins.
The Talmudic story Tracie referenced can be found in Talmud Chagiga 15b, where there is discussion around how to think about teachings of Acher, the rabbi turned apostate. Here it says “Rabbi Meir [Acher’s friend and former student] found a pomegranate; he ate the inside and threw away the peel!” You can read the whole passage here. Or read more about the man who became known as "the other one" here.
In this week’s episode April and Tracie continue to explore their thoughts around Thanksgiving and the tension between a holiday about gratitude and family and its racist, genocidal origins.
The Talmudic story Tracie referenced can be found in Talmud Chagiga 15b, where there is discussion around how to think about teachings of Acher, the rabbi turned apostate. Here it says “Rabbi Meir [Acher’s friend and former student] found a pomegranate; he ate the inside and threw away the peel!” You can read the whole passage here. Or read more about the man who became known as "the other one" here.
- [Tracie] On this final Thursday of November 2021, we're looking for ways to keep what's beautiful and transmute what is ugly about today.- [April] This is "Jews Talk Racial Justice" with April and Tracie.- [Tracie] A weekly show hosted by April Baskin and Tracie Guy-Decker.- [April] In a complex world, change takes courage.- [Tracie] Whole-hearted relationships can keep us accountable.- I want to wish everyone a happy, Grateful Family Day.(both chuckling) This last Thursday of-- The last Thursday.- Of November.- Mm-hmm.- Yes. So I think this is going to be airing on Thanksgiving. Is that right?- That's right, Thanksgiving Day.- Yep, all right, well, let's dive in. The story around Thanksgiving is horrible, and because of that, for me and various other folks, it taints the entire holiday for reasons we got into in last year's episode about Thanksgiving. So if you've recently joined us in our show notes, we will link to that episode, if you wanna get a background on my take and my concerns associated with the holiday and the oppression it condones. It's still funny to me, I find it very funny that, and also telling now that it's not just a dear family member who really loves the beautiful parts of this holiday, but I recently, in a conversation a couple months back, with Assane, we're working on getting him a visa so that he can come meet my family (laughs) and they can meet him, very important for me to have that happen with my significant other, and the person I love, and he mentioned to my great surprise and slight dismay (chuckles), and "I need to get it"by early November so I can get a ticket"so I can be there with your family for Thanksgiving."This is a wonderful American holiday."(both laughing)- Yeah, it still blows my mind a little bit that your Senegalese partner is excited about Thanksgiving.- I was like, what is this conspiracy? One of the most woke, wonderful people in my life, and the love of my life are triangulating me and so, over the past several weeks and couple months, been working to reconcile these parts as someone who both holds strong perspectives and who also is in a continual state of evolution and believe that that's part of the purpose and joy in life is to continue to evolve and move and shift and also, someone who believes in synchronicity or explicit and subtle, not so subtle as well as subtle messages and lessons that come from the natural world, that come from other things people say that are pushing me to continue to evolve. And now, obviously, in the context of, say, racism or certain things, just because there's external pressure doesn't mean inherently that I need to shift my perspective, but when two people I love and who are bringing perspectives that I don't inherently find problematic, and Assane was a particularly helpful one. He is a partner and a spiritual teacher to me in various ways, and that goes both ways, too. And he doesn't know anything about the genocidal tropes associated with the holiday. In his mind, it's an American holiday where families get together, and family, in Senegal, is extremely important. It's one of the things that drew me to the country, was not just the family piece, but just relationships in general are so sacred there and very alive and vibrant. I think, both because of elements of the culture and also, a la the wonderful book,"Bowling Alone" in the States, also, in terms of industry and economy, Senegal, in some ways, is, I find, I think, I can't remember if I've mentioned this on the podcast, but I wanna say this, is depending upon certain things, whether it's cars or technology or home, or health, different facets of the society can be likened to different decades past and future in the States. Right? And so, people aren't bowling alone, to reference that book, people are still very connected in Senegal, and capitalism is alive and well there, but still, as it was when people were still connecting in the '60s and '70s in the States, but it was just different relational tissue. So anyways, so to me, this was, I took this as a spiritual sign from the universe, if two people I really love and generally respect and align with, there's something they love about this holiday, and so, I've been in a process of reconciling, holding that, and also, holding, for me, with my analysis, I don't want anything to do with this holiday. So just as a kind of a refresher around why it feels problematic to me that there's some beautiful elements, but to me, coopting beautiful elements of the human experience to paper over a story of genocide and oppression or focusing on gratitude in the context of different people still not receiving justice just doesn't, that doesn't sit well with me. As much as I love those things when they're not tainted by that grotesqueness, and Tracie, you've shared a metaphor that I've also often thought of that I think might be worth sharing.- After you and I spoke again about Thanksgiving, in recent weeks, not last year, and I was talking to my mom, who also loves Thanksgiving, and she said, you know,"I don't even think"about the pilgrims, like that's not what it's about for me."It's about family and it's about being grateful"for just my overflowing bounty," that's the word she used, and I said, you know, Mom, that's really lovely. It really is, but you know, if the Germans had a holiday about family and gratitude, but it was somehow linked historically to Kristallnacht or to a pogrom, like we wouldn't be okay with that. We wouldn't be okay with them having transformed that genocidal moment-- Like, oh, that doesn't matter, we just like to eat food, and there's this whole story about how we conquered and tortured the, or how the Jews were helpful for us, and let us retake over bookstores.(both laughing)- Right, or if it were tied to something about taking over, about the annexation of Poland, you know?- Right.- It's hard for me to imagine a Thanksgiving-type holiday based on Kristallnacht, but it's not impossible for me to imagine a Thanksgiving-type holiday around some moment within the war, like within the Third Reich's reign.- And then them recasting the story as the Jews were so helpful, and it's like, no, you murdered us.- Right, right.- You murdered us. We're still suffering.- You know, we haven't talked about this before, but now, right now, while we're talking and when we're talking about the way-- Oh, good. Let's hear it.- That it's been transformed, I'm thinking about language. This is specifically around, because of the way Assane doesn't know that other background, he just sort of sees where it is now, and I'm thinking about language and the way that different idioms kind of come from a specific thing, and then get divorced from that thing.- And that's how he sees it from his lens, right? So his lens also informs, which is that he just like loves family connection, right?- Right.- Please continue.- Well, I'm just thinking about, so the first thing I thought of was the expression, rule of thumb, oh, well, a good rule of thumb is whatever. Like, and it gives you like a baseline, and like that idiom originally came from if you, if a man were to beat his wife with a switch or a stick, like if it was smaller than his thumb, like it was cool, but he might get in trouble.- Ew.- If it were bigger. Yeah, ew, ew. And obviously, that has nothing to do with the way that we use the idiom now, but that's where it came from originally. Or the other one that came to mind, as I was thinking about what I wanted to share with our listeners, I was like, I don't know if that's the one I wanna share, I just did, but the other one that came to mind is actually brouhaha, like, meaning like a cacophony of noise, which is a bastardization of Baruch Haba, welcome the one who comes, which is a thing that, so if a group of Jews were together and then someone came in the door, Baruch Haba, welcome, and that got bastardized by non-Jews into brouhaha, as like a cacophony of chaos that doesn't make any sense.- Chaos.- Chaos.- Ooh.- And that's kind of not cool, either, right?- Right.- But one could imagine using the word brouhaha, no idea where it came from, you know, before I learned where it came from, I used it to describe loud and raucous and joyful parties, and I try not to use it anymore. And I don't know, I'm not sure where I'm going with this, but there feels like something resonant in the way that we want to believe, we Americans, want to believe that we can sort of take what's good and the bad stuff doesn't matter. Like we just kind of ghost it. But I don't think that's how it works.- And for me, so actually, this is really interesting. So by the way, just for those who are listening, hopefully, maybe, on Grateful Family Day, I hope that this is juicy material for you and you're enjoying some intellectual material on this, what will hopefully, ultimately, be a sweet day, and I wanna also let you know that I'm planning on landing in a sweet and just and pithy place here with Tracie. So we're not looking to be Debbie Downers during your family time-- Right.- Despite the fact that there might be very just cause to be but I think I've found a way to reconcile all of these things.- I just, I'm excited to hear that, because I imagine some of our listeners listening to us right now while they are preparing their stuffing or their cranberry sauce or their turkey or whatever, and like, you know, so.- Yum. Yeah, okay, so but before we get to, I wanna let you know that is coming in this episode, but first, I wanna speak to what you were saying, Tracie, right, that I actually, so this is an interesting nuance that I wanna just toss in here since it came up. Now what's interesting to me is there is, there absolutely is place and space for certain terms or even something like Thanksgiving to be cleansed of its icky past. My contention is that cleansing has not happened, and so, just as you said, when you ignore the ugly stuff, what you're also ignoring is present-day trauma and challenge for the descendants of people who have been impacted by genocidal, settler colonialism today, today, and structures, right, and that's not okay for me. But it's interesting, it's a whole other conversation that I think we could potentially do a whole podcast around because for me, I kind of take it thing by thing, and I think maybe also there are experts who would challenge me around that, which I welcome. But say, for instance, like with rule of thumb, there's a way for me in which, I don't know, or things like that, I would wanna learn more about that before I make this statement, where certain things, if collective consciousness in general has shifted enough, and those similar things aren't happening, and there has been truth and reconciliation, or some form of healing over time through laws, through actions, through different things that have shifted the moment, I am open to reclaiming different things but there needs to have been tacitly or explicitly some form of Tikkun or spiritual transmutation or transformation that has taken place. And because that hasn't happened for me, so there are certain things, people say, oh, I don't, like that has a history, and I'm like, that does have a history, but in my mind, we have actually collectively shifted that dynamic and rewritten that narrative around that thing so I am comfortable with using that thing, right? So like, just an example, so for instance, with the phrase gypped, as a number of people may know, that's a term that's derogatory of Romani people, and I would say in my mind, people who are a part of that community or who are descendants of that community, still receive disrespect and discrimination, so that's still not a phrase that I feel comfortable using and also, it inherently is based in hate. Like it's inherently based in saying a name of a group of people, that they did not decide for themselves and using it.- It's also really, that one is super similar to being Jewed down, right?- Right.- Like, which is used to say that you were, someone bargained against you, and made you pay more than you should've, or you know, or sorry, you negotiated for a lower price, if you Jewed them down, you negotiated for a lower price. Which yuck, ew, no.- Right, and something so based in hatred and dehumanization is not something I'm interested in reclaiming but again, we can get, footnote for a future episode, there are certain things that, to me, have partially an icky past, but there's a part of that narrative or that phrase that actually is useful or is neutral or is actually, can be reframed as truly empowering, and not rooted in dehumanization. So to me, I just wanna name this, because I know there's a trend in some of our movements and different movement spaces to just completely abolish and do away with certain things, and I'm not so interested in that. I'm interested in transformation and having all options available but doing the work that we need to do to be able to reclaim that abundance and that possibility, which is a fine-tuning thing there. And so, that's a good segue to my thoughts about Thanksgiving, and given, to me, the awful and just inaccurate. It's both horrific in some ways, and then, in other ways, it's just lazy and not accurate. Like to say we're a nation of pilgrims, both doesn't acknowledge everyone who is descended of people who were kidnapped from Africa, and the descendants of Indigenous peoples. So that's a stupid thing to say. It literally is just inaccurate, and again, a reminder here, often, Tracie and critique behaviors and statements and policies. I do not think that people who make that statement are stupid, which oftentimes, people conflate those things. I do not. I think all people, including Tracie and me, are very smart people, who have inherited some pretty dumb ideas and behaviors, and as smart, inherently good people, we get to reevaluate those things with some distance, and say, maybe that's not a thing I want to do anymore, or I might wanna redo that. So okay, so anyway, so I'm someone who's flexible and who's willing to compromise. That's key in this perspective, okay? There's certain things in this scenario that I'm not willing to compromise on. As of right now, without our country having gone through a truth and reconciliation process around Thanksgiving, let alone in general around Indigenous genocide and also the enslavement of African folks, among lots of other things, the internment of Japanese, like many, many different things although there has been some work around that, but collectively, there's just a sacred healing body of work that will both be difficult and incredibly liberating for our nation, I think I've done enough work and I'm so clear in my rejection of the traditional, false, misleading and just kind of hogwashy Thanksgiving narrative and I felt sort of this nationalistic American pressure to have to relate to that in some way. But I've done enough of my own healing work around it that I am ready to release that, and that it's possible for me to have something on a similar day, or the same day, having done enough work to fully release that narrative, but it's not enough to release it. I want to have something else to fill its place. So in an ideal world, we would just find a different day entirely, and lift up the things that we love that was also included in Thanksgiving, but repurpose it in a totally different context. And I know that that's not going to happen in this precise moment. So the other day on Facebook, this woman who I really love, who I feel deeply aligned with, and she has more courage to share her thoughts more openly, her name's Maria Broom, she posted the other day, quote, "In spite of brutal colonial history,"people love to gather on the last day of November."Let's call it Grateful Family Day." So shoutout to Maria Broom. I think if I were to take more time and think about it, I might frame it a little differently. I'm actually a little bit of a metaphysical snob, but I actually think that there are slightly higher or more sophisticated forms of gratitude, but this is sufficient for now. (laughs) Grateful Family Day, and for me, what I would add, what I've also been thinking about is it's high time and it's relatively so easy for lots of us, especially for those, for a number of folks who are generally somewhat aligned with the Jews Talk Racial Justice team, to completely release the deceitful narrative about a beautiful colonial past when it was, colonialism is not beautiful, and was brutal and genocidal, and actually replace it with the truth, which is that this nation has complicated and somewhat dark origins, but this land, Turtle Island, has really beautiful origins around our Indigenous history and in spite of that darkness, thousands, millions of people with each passing generation, have put their lives on the line, have poured their heart and soul into building something beautiful, in spite of the horror and trauma. And that is something that I genuinely feel very proud of, with my family, with my movement elders, with the amazing people who are listening to this podcast, and other folks with whom we collaborate. We are doing healing work to heal what has been broken, to lift up what is beautiful about where we are, and where we are going, about what is possible. We are facing difficult odds, and our ancestors, so part of what I'm saying is, in some ways, to centralize the people about whom there were lies told in the original story, but to say, is to honor people of African heritage who were stolen and brought to this land, to honor Native and Indigenous people who were and still are stewards of this land, and our collective wellbeing, and also deeply contributed to the development of the current country we are. And that feels real and true, to me. And so, I'm in a place where spiritually, and in principle, and spiritually, I am completely releasing the outdated Thanksgiving narrative and lifting up and centering the themes of two people close to me in my life who I deeply love, about what they love, which is connecting with family. One of my family members also wanted to engage in truth and reconciliation around lifting up Native voices, and that is something that, in the context of feeling proud of our survival, in spite of the odds, and feeling proud of the courage that so many people have and have today around the systems and machines and the daunting task ahead of us, and a lot of us still holding onto the beauty of our dreams around what's possible for us to collectively co-create, and heal together. And that's basically where I am right now, is that, is I'd love to reframe Thanksgiving, basically, into Grateful Family Day, and also a day to consider and not savor, to ruminate on bold and exciting, revolutionary ideas around what's possible for us and our peoples and our nation collectively, if we're willing to hold tightly to our collective goodness and also, look at the darkness, but also, look at the light and where we've been heading, and where we can go from here. So that's, those are some of my thoughts about it. Tracie, what's on your mind? How does that land with you? Do you have any addendums, edits?- So what's on my mind is our friends who are listening, who are somehow either getting ready to go to someone else's house for Thanksgiving or prepping their own meal, because of COVID, they can't go, whatever it is, the folks who are in the midst of the day, I'm thinking of them, and I'm listening to you, and I just, I wanna say, this conversation is not about making anybody feel bad. That's really not what it's about, and I wanna lift up what April was just saying, I learned from April or really see it modeled from April, the idea of what you focus on grows, and so, sort of if you're hearing April, and you're like, yeah, but I love Thanksgiving, that's okay. We're not trying to make you feel any kind of way, and I think what I'm taking away for now, and I expect I will continue to evolve on this, is the things that I love about Thanksgiving, the gratitude and the family, especially, especially in the 21st century construction of November and December, which is all about capitalism, it's all about sales, it's all about what can I get, and not about thanks for what I have. So that timing, in some ways, I mean, it's a cycle. It's kind of a chicken or egg, is Thanksgiving there as respite from that, or is it there because of Thanksgiving? I don't know, but my point is, that pause for gratitude is a good thing, and I think what's coming up for me is actually this story of the apostate, Acher, the Other One, and one of his former friends sort of said, it's like a pomegranate, and I take what is good and I leave the rind, I leave what is not, and sort of, and it was a very specific story that I'll link in the show notes, if you care to follow it. But the idea that the good and the bad are marbled together and that discernment is essential is a very old idea from within our tradition, and that's what I'm offering up right now.- I wanna add to that, is that to me, in Tracie's fantastic skill of helping folks with the practical piece, is I'm not saying actually leave the rest. It is not benign, and I think it is not sufficient to leave it. What I'm saying is any day, but especially a day when we're given space to really be grateful, that's a perfect time to be grateful, and also that we start to either leverage and lift up the narratives that we already have, or start to create a new narrative for our family and our communities and our country around, it ain't always been easy, and what I love about this is the fractal nature of it for ourselves, as we talk about it over Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur for our family systems, the best families have challenges and points of growth and ongoing learning or patterns that need healing, right, and the same is true of our country, and that I actually, for those who can do it, and not that you need to talk about those things, but hold them in your mind. This is, to me, this is a part of the skill set that's a part of our different training programs and the work that we do, and what I would contend is that this is the source, not immediately, but this is where joy emanates from. A colleague of mine says that she read in a book that joy is grief turned inside out. What I would say to you is that your Grateful Family Day, this day, can be even sweeter if you hold, in some ways, that there are stories, collectively, that we still need to deal with, and that we're in the process of dealing with, and in spite of that, I'm also going to place attention or because of that, I'm going to place attention and notice, proactively, appreciatively, notice signs and symbols that demonstrate in real, concrete ways, that we are creating, co-creating a new narrative and a new future together, and that we have been on that path, and that it's not new, but that we get to bring new vigor to that, and to me, that's always exciting, because to me, before I started having even a heavy critique of Thanksgiving, there's a way, at times, that gratitude, or the ways it's talked about feels a little bit shallow to me. So in the spirit of what I first saw modeled, which I appreciated in a mindfulness blessing or prayer from Thich Nhat Hanh, where when he acknowledges the food we have, he doesn't just acknowledge that. He also says, "May we demonstrate our gratitude"moving forward by working to make this world"more whole and just and joyful." Right? And so-- I love that.- I would add that piece, right? And so, to me, right? And so, to me, on this Grateful Family Day, in the context of, to me, all these things fit together beautifully, making a beautiful meal, coming together virtually or in person, if it's safe, to be with people we love and cherish, who are most important to us, and to think about our historic, present and future stories of triumph in the face of adversity, that feels real to me. Like that feels inspiring, you know?- Especially in the midst of the capitalism that I recently named-- Yeah. (laughs)- At my Thanksgiving table, my mom, since I was little, like we always, you go around the table, and you say what you're grateful for. Like it's a thing, and you can't pass. You cannot pass.(April laughs) But I think, based on what you just said from the Thich Nhat Hahn blessing, I'm gonna ask that we say not just what we're grateful for, but how we will demonstrate that gratitude moving forward,'cause I think that that, I don't know, that feels really beautiful and transformative, so that, to make sure that the gratitude is not just thank you, but actually, transformational, even in subtle ways, which we know, science tells us, actually changes reality. I mean, the social scientists have said that the happiest people are the most grateful people.- People from so many different fields, yes.- It's not just our happiness at stake. It's a lot more.- And I think, for various folks, not for everyone, I think, for younger, but like, I often, it feels burdensome, at times, to acknowledge all of that bounty, so I think it can actually create this balanced experience where we can feel peace of mind to be in relationship around the receiving to say and I'm going to, and I'm going to use that extra energy not for excess, although some of it's good to savor. I'm not saying there isn't a purpose and divinity in that, but I'm also going to use it in different ways,'cause I think, especially with our crowd, certain folks, I don't, since I was younger, it felt a little burdensome, like what do I do with all, like, and so now what? Like, right, and so, I think there's also a way in which, I think that's a great idea, basically, and I think it's good not only because we should do it, but I think it actually could bring relief and comfort of like, right, I'm gaining all this at a time when we know that we're not yet in the world to be where everyone has their needs met, so it's all the more important, but even when everyone has their needs met, ideally, we get, it's a divine balance of giving and receiving, and right now, if we are in a process of receiving and noticing what we've received, it often helps to, I think, balance us out spiritually, to also think about, and how am I going to leverage this? How am I going to share this joy, which, I believe, spiritually and metaphysically, then further grows the joy, actually. It further grows it in the process of sharing. And so, this feels like pretty exciting to me, Tracie. I really like this, the arc of this place, right, because for me, I really don't like to stay in the place where I've been for the past few years, but I needed to work through and reconcile and release different icky things, but I don't like to just stay there. I like to land in a place where I'm like, this is good fuel, direction, I have a map for moving forward that now makes sense, that now feels accountable and joyous and just. So with all of that in mind, we wish you a most joyful Grateful Family Day or whatever you most find it meaningful to call it. Thanks for tuning in. Our show's theme music was composed by Elliot Hammer. You can find this track and other beats on Instagram @ElliotHammer. If this episode resonated with you, please share it and subscribe. To join the conversation, visit jewstalkracialjustice.com, where you can send us a question or a suggestion, access our show notes, and learn more about our team. Take care until next time, and stay humble and keep going.