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Hosted by award-winning Black & Cherokee Jewish social justice leader and certified coach, Kohenet April Nichole Baskin.
In this week's episode, April and Tracie discuss Eric Ward’s Skin in the Game point about the conditional whiteness of Ashkenazi Jews, unpacking (with both/and thinking) the reaction some Jews have regarding their whiteness. April uses her experiences as a United States citizen living in Senegal to explain how conditional privilege operates.
Check out our discussion/reflection questions for this episode:
What in this episode is new for you? What have you learned and how does it land?
What is resonating? What is sticking with you and why?
What, if anything feels hard? What is challenging or on the edge for you?
If relevant. what feelings and sensations are arising as you reflect on themes from this episode, and where in your body do you feel them?
What key insights or strategies are you carrying forward and how do you want to weave them into your living and/or leadership?
- [Tracie] The white Jewish relationship to whiteness is complicated. Unpacking it requires both/and thinking.- [April] This is "Jews Talk Racial Justice" with April and Tracie,- [Tracie] A weekly show hosted by April Baskin and Tracie Guy-Decker.- [April] In a complex world, change takes courage.- [Tracie] Whole hearted relationships can keep us accountable.- So actually, something kind of interesting came up with one of our Awareniks very recently that I thought might be interesting. And it was about Eric Ward, who wrote "Skin in the Game." I think we've talked about him before on the show.- He's fantastic.- He is fantastic. I mean like a prophet, almost. I saw him recently, my former employer did a session with him, it was just really good. He's, yeah, anyway, so one of the things that Eric Ward says is he points out that... White Jews' whiteness is conditional because of the nature of antisemitism and white nationalism. And so, one of our Awareniks was like, I'm trying not to like feel vindicated because I always argue that, you know, from, especially from the Robin DiAngelo who says white Jews are white. And I think it's an interesting kind of both/and.'Cause I think the-- That was my thought.- Yeah. I think the Awarenik who kind of raised this like got stuck in sort of either/or. Like either Jews are, white Jews are white or they are conditionally white.(laughs) You know, with-- Or not white.- Right, or not white.- I think that it was more that likely, I don't know about the specific person, but I think often, certain Jews who struggle with this concept resist the label of whiteness. And so, the nuance that Eric Ward provides that aligns with my own over the past several years and also in general, also specifically in the context of his article, "Skin in the Game," it's a deep affirmation and a deep contradiction in a positive way for a lot of Jews. It deeply contradicts different antisemitic dynamics and names that it is a very important issue. And he also does the work of the both/and work of saying that in that piece, that white supremacy is very much alive and well, and that racism and antisemitism are elements of white supremacy and I'll spare the specifics of how he articulates it at the moment. And so, I think in the context of a number of, of some Jews being resistant to the label of white in the context, 'cause I think that's also actually key. It's not just that specific piece. It's not the specific piece of the conditional whiteness, it's that Ward deeply affirms and validates the presence and threat of antisemitism in a more sophisticated, racially just way than arguably a number of other mainstream Jewish institutions, at least had traditionally done up until he published his work, right? And because I think, at times, often when I've used it in my own work, people work with it, but I don't think they feel necessarily as vindicated because I'm talking about it in a slightly different context within which I'm not, I am affirming, actually, but not quite in the same way or to the same extent or doesn't hit quite the same notes. You know? So I would also identify that I think that there's an unspoken, very real dynamic, but it's not just that specific phrasing. It's also the deep validation, which someone like Robin DiAngelo or say, other anti-racist white Jews, who have been in this work deeply and are progressive and on the leading edge of this work for a number of reasons that are actually quite interesting. They don't necessarily, when they articulate, when a mainstream white leader or a white anti-racist Jewish leader says that white Jews are white, even if they said there was a conditional whiteness, it's not, it doesn't also have that, all of that affirmation of, yeah, antisemitism is a real thing and it's a very real threat and not only is it a threat, but it actually has a very particular relationship with racism in the context of white supremacy culture.- And white nationalism, in particular.- And that's it's coming from a Black, a respected Black leader. Right?- Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I hear all those things. I definitely, before I read "Skin in the Game," which I read several years ago now, not long after he published it. So it was like, I think I read it like right as the Charlottesville "Unite the Right" deadly rally happened, and I think prior to that, I was guilty of the same either/or, where, because I was focused on fighting anti-Black racism, I was kind of minimizing the threat of, the threat of antisemitism and the antisemitism piece of white supremacy and white nationalism, and I think the thing that-- Which is common.- Yeah, no. I mean, that's what he says that in the piece, that that was, that's often a response that he gets from progressive white Jews, is to kind of minimize or poo-poo the threat. Not anymore, I can't imagine anymore. But when he was writing that piece, which was several years ago.- Well, it's still there, but it's different. It takes on a slightly different. It's similar-- Yeah, yeah. I think that the thing that is both hard and the key to kind of holding the reaction, is the key to kind of progress, in my mind for me, is making the space for all of those truths at the same time, all of the both/ands of my access to whiteness because of my white skin and also the threat of antisemitism and also the connection between antisemitism and anti-Black racism.- And I think like I wanna unpack this a little bit more or address the next part of it, that we were leading toward, around. Conditional whiteness is still whiteness. It's just a variation of it. And so when this is said, I often also speak with gentleness and kindness. And I typically bring this up in the context of why is white supremacy and racism part of Jewish, mainstream Jewish life today? How did that come to be? Because I don't think for the most part, really, that it is inherently, it is, what's the word I'm looking here for? It's not inherent within Judaism itself.- Oh, for sure not, I agree.- And over the arc, right, not that there aren't instances in texts or times of bias and different things, but not like systemic racism. And so, there's a whole story I tell about basically that our assimilation into American culture was an assimilation also into American white supremacy and racism.- Yeah, absolutely.- And not necessarily cart and horse, not necessarily in its entirety, because a number of Jews though, not all, but a prominent, a significant number of Jews work to directly contradict that. But as we've continued to learn through a racial justice education and critical race theory that racism and the system of racism is systemic and there are parts of it that are explicit and there are parts of it that are much more subtle and insidious and harder to identify on its face and just become the norm. Right? And so it's not like, I think that lots of Jews got together, you know,'cause it's more like, yeah, oh yeah, that's what's happening here. We're getting targeted by antisemitism, so let's just all agree to hop on board with racism, right? I do think, right, Like I don't think that most Jews did, but I do from my study of history and reading works by Professors Goldstein, Eric Goldstein and Marc Dollinger indicate that there are, I think there were some pivotal leaders who were very aware of some of these dynamics and did make these choices, but your average Jew in the pew Jew in the bagel shop, Jew on the street was not thinking about this, with this level of sociological awareness or analysis. They just didn't have it necessarily. Right? And so, I got a little off track. So I would talk, so at times, when I talk about these things supportively, I also think it's important to name here in the wave that you're bringing this up is just to acknowledge. And I wish I could think of some sort of example, like I think the example that I can think of that isn't quite the same, but it feels relevant here, and I think it's slightly more generous than I would like it to be, but I think it's fine, right, is that in the same ways that it is very difficult, and it took me being in an affinity space of other people of the global majority who were Jewish and who had a very strong power analysis and who I knew understood the depths and depravity and horrors of racism, historically and present day, it took me being in that kind of a circle to be able to feel safe enough and seen enough to really unpack my privilege as a United States citizen. And my duty, even as I am marginalized in many respects within this society, as an American citizen, I still get many benefits that come from that, even if they are compromised in certain ways, when I show up in international spaces, right? And so similarly, especially for white Jews in general and explicitly in the context of interracial partnerships and relationships, it's very important that, in a similar sort of way, in the same ways that while I mitigate it, and at times, it's gray and confusing for me to be a U.S. citizen who's based in West Africa, I am still aware that as a U.S. citizen, I have access to far more capital. I have a U.S. passport. At the end of the day, if there is an emergency and I ask for help, or if I call, I have an embassy that I can call where I do have certain doubts as a Black person, if I will be treated well or fairly, but I can kind of mostly assume that my needs will be met. And thus far, they have been. I was offered an emergency flight back to America, you know, like they weren't like, ah, you're a Black one, you're a Blackie. We're not sending you that email. You know, that didn't happen. I got the same access that everyone else did, even as there are certain things for me that are confusing for me, particularly in the context of my relationship with my partner and thinking about the ways that my government may or may not help me. But at the end of the day, he continually reminds me like, yes, you're Black, but you are American, and that means a lot. And I'm like, yeah, but I'm like, my citizenship, but you know what, right? And so to me, it's kind of a similarish corollary, Jews and whiteness, and I think in some ways, it's gracious and other ways it's not, and in other ways, it's more gracious in my situation. Like legally, I am undeniably a U.S. citizen, whereas white Jews don't have a legal-- Well.- In quite the same way. Whiteness.- Anymore, but we did. I mean like, like when we use the example of like the U.S. Supreme Court decision with Mr. Thind in the '30s, a man who was born in India, he was Indian and he argued that Indians were Caucasian, from the same, and so, scientifically, based on the science, I'm putting air quotes around science, the science, the understanding of the science at the time, he argued that he was, in fact white, and the U.S. Supreme Court was like, yeah, no, uh-uh, we don't really care about the science. Obviously, no, the common sense understanding of whiteness, you don't fit because you're brown. No European white Jew ever had to argue before the Supreme Court that we should be granted citizenship, which was restricted to free white people. So there is actually a history of legal whiteness status that white Jews were afforded from the beginning. There was never a question about whether or not, for instance, white Jews would be entitled to enslave Black Africans if they so chose.- Yeah, 'cause that's part of my family's encounters with Jews.- Right, right. And so I think that there's, you know-- Black families.- It's true that, right now there is not the same sort of legal, like distinctions to parallel your citizenship metaphor. But in the past, there have been. And I think that-- And in the same ways, I think it relates because it feels, I can, and folks can feel free to let me know how relevant this does and doesn't feel, but for me personally, it feels, when I'm in certain circles, like if I were in an all-white circle or an all-Christian circle, too, certain elements of a conversation about U.S. privilege in the context of the world, the thing is, I know that it's true, but part of it just depends on the space and the people. I wouldn't feel, or to me, it's kind of similar to climate change. I also have this with climate change, where I very much know that there are personally things I'm responsible for, and I also really want wealthy white men and white communities who created a lot of this stuff, to take-- To take some responsibility.- Some ownership.- Yeah, yeah.- To take proportional, yeah, I can address, and but also, too, even for me in the context of the United States, right, so if we're talking about thinking about global warming and with nations and nations needing to take responsibility, the United States, even as I am a marginalized person in that context, it is also undeniable to me that as much marginalization and trauma as my family has endured, whether or not I wanted it, I have been party to, which doesn't mean that I should disproportionately own it in the same way that the CEO of pick some corporation that's heavily polluting the planet. Like I'm not saying that on that level, right, but I still, far more so than somebody living in a, poor neighborhood here in Dakar, like, from the products I've purchased, from different things, possibly arguably, you know, kind of like fun, funny, quick reference without going into details, those who get it will get it, you know, like sort of like relating to some of the themes that are covered in "The Good Place," like whether or not I have known that I have been a part of these things, I have been purchasing products my entire life that embed me deeply as an American and as complicit in these horrible things. Which I was even aware of as a kid where I went through this emotional crisis that I think I talked about it on an episode before where I was like, maybe I should find a way to not live, not from a clinically suicidal perspective, but just theoretically in a very intense way. Like it just kind of hit me, like I've been a part of so many awful things. Is there any way over the course of my life, even if I live under a bridge, that I could ever fully compensate for what I had been complicit in, right? And I'm now, I still to this day try to do as much as I can to contradict that. But all of this to say, I feel profoundly resistant in certain circles, but even as I'm in those circles, I very much hold in my mind that I, you know, I feel like I might not have as much culpability as a number of people in this circle or hypothetically of various people out in the world. But I am very clear about all kinds of things in my life and my leadership that I need to do to save the planet and that I need to do as an American citizen to do my part as much as possible to move the U.S. in the direction of being less of an empire and more of an equitable, just member of a global community. Right? And that I don't say, I'm not American because I'm Black.- Right.- And/or because I'm Native, even though I arguably could make that case, but I don't. And so, the other piece did you wanna, before I go to a different piece, I want to mention my Mom too. I want to talk about that for a second.- I want to agree with your, sort of talking about the way that you feel differently in different circles, like that feels really significant to me in the same way that privilege-- And where you feel safe to talk about it.- I think that's, yes, I think that's part of it. I think it's also about like the other people in the circle. Like I'm projecting my own experience of being in predominantly white Jewish spaces where I would argue very strongly to other white Jews that we are white because we have access to the advantage of whiteness. Whereas when I'm in explicitly white spaces, which doesn't happen very often, where they're self-consciously white, except for anti-racist affinity spaces. But on the few times that has happened with the anti-racist white affinity spaces, then I do argue that Jews' whiteness has an asterisk next to it. It's not just, it's not the same, which is not to say we don't have the advantages, but then there's also the specter and the, well, the reality of antisemitism.- Right. Which can change that. But even as, you know, as I think about it, I am, you know, when I, as a person of color, think about the different facets of my identity and the racism I've experienced and what privilege I do and don't have access to, I am very aware that my white Jewish mother afforded me lighter color skin and afforded our family. You know, I was placed in, I was incorrectly placed in all remedial classes in first grade in Blacksburg, Virginia, and my dad went in to advocate for us, and he had a more advanced education than my mother and nothing happened. And two years later when my mom went in, as a white woman, the following year or a year later, when my mom went in around the same time to make the case for it, without any additional testing, we were placed in all advanced, I was placed in all advanced classes, the following year, which greatly shifted my trajectory, and I attribute that to whiteness, even as my mom was Jewish, even as she was certainly and continues to be targeted by antisemitism in different ways, that in some ways, shifts her experience of whiteness. But there are also a number of ways where it doesn't shift her experience of whiteness, and she walks through this world regularly, much, most of the time, she would say, as a white person, even as her whiteness may be conditional, she looks white to most people. And especially in the context of Christian hegemony in our mostly Christian area, unless people know her personally, the default assumption is that she's a white Christian woman.- Right. Right!- Full stop. And so I think one of the most interesting parts of this episode, to me was us through your sharing, right, and me connecting the dots, like I think a huge part of this is about validation of pain and the reality of antisemitism and the reality of antisemitism doesn't entirely negate whiteness, period, period, unless there are other variables at play like the Jew in question, or the person we might be talking about, the Jew we might be talking about, has Mizrahi heritage, is Mizrahi or Sephardi, or comes from North Africa, right, and also is targeted by racism, is not labeled as white, or is racially ambiguous, which occasionally, can happen for certain Ashkenazi Jews. But most of the time, not. Like even my Mom at times when she was younger, especially on the East Coast, it's less of a thing in California, but on the East Coast, she's very pale. We like to joke pink skin and people, because she was a curvier woman with big curly hair, at times, East Coast people would think she was Puerto Rican, but she still had light skin/white privilege in the ways that different Latina/Latinx folks do, as well, at times. So all of that to say, I think it's helpful for us to be willing to be courageous. I think, so I think one thing, as I've been practicing for years, and as you lifted up, Tracie, at the very beginning of this episode, that being precise with language can help. So at times, not all the time, but at times, for us to hold a no, I'm saying us, as if I am a white Ashkenazi Jew, for white Ashkenazi Jews to hold that whiteness is arguably conditional, but that for oh, whatever it is now, about four, at least four to six decades, that conditionality has remained pretty consistent around whiteness, when what's that, like two generations? And that we need to acknowledge that and really be willing to look at that with courage and honesty and rigor. But yes, there is antisemitism and it is not the same as white Christians, but it is wildly, vastly different from people who are classified as people of color in this society and especially Black people, but also really all people of color, Native people, Indigenous folks, Asian heritage people, people who, for whom whiteness is not accessible to them, it's a very different experience. And it's important to acknowledge the majority of ways that it is a very different experience, and also notice the places where it doesn't quite jive and we have experienced exclusion from white Christian hegemonic supremacy. Thanks for tuning in. Our show's theme music was composed by Elliot Hammer. You can find this track and other beats on Instagram @elliothammer. If this episode resonated with you, please share it and subscribe. To join the conversation, visit jewstalkracialjustice.com, where you can send us a question or a suggestion, access our show notes and learn more about our team. Take care until next time and stay humble and keep going.
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