QUICK EPISODE OVERVIEW
As the election season concludes, Tracie asks April for advice on working through the negative emotions that sometimes accompany justice work. The two friends unpack the ways we've been taught to associate anger or rage with justice work (and anxiety with intelligence), and April shares suggestions for achieving the positive effects of BOTH feeling your feelings AND cultivating joy and presence.
Find April and Tracie's full bios and submit topic suggestions for the show at www.JewsTalkRacialJustice.com
Learn more about Joyous Justice where April is the founding and fabulous (!) director and Tracie is a senior partner: https://joyousjustice.com/
Read more of Tracie's thoughts at bmoreincremental.com
Resources for further learning:
Thich Naht Hanh on Dealing with Strong Emotions
Rabbi David Jaffe's book Changing the World from the Inside Out
DISCUSSION QUESTIONS
How have you been emotionally during this intense election season? How have you been balancing rage and anger with joy?
QUICK EPISODE OVERVIEW
As the election season concludes, Tracie asks April for advice on working through the negative emotions that sometimes accompany justice work. The two friends unpack the ways we've been taught to associate anger or rage with justice work (and anxiety with intelligence), and April shares suggestions for achieving the positive effects of BOTH feeling your feelings AND cultivating joy and presence.
Find April and Tracie's full bios and submit topic suggestions for the show at www.JewsTalkRacialJustice.com
Learn more about Joyous Justice where April is the founding and fabulous (!) director and Tracie is a senior partner: https://joyousjustice.com/
Read more of Tracie's thoughts at bmoreincremental.com
Resources for further learning:
Thich Naht Hanh on Dealing with Strong Emotions
Rabbi David Jaffe's book Changing the World from the Inside Out
DISCUSSION QUESTIONS
How have you been emotionally during this intense election season? How have you been balancing rage and anger with joy?
- [Tracie] I'm not sure that I understood that those two things could go together. I thought smart meant anxious.- [April] This is Jews Talk Racial Justice with April and Tracie.- [Tracie] A weekly show hosted by April Baskin and Tracie Guy-Decker.- [April] In a complex world change takes courage.- [Tracie] Wholehearted relationships can keep us accountable.- So, April, this election season has been, whew, really intense.- Whew.- [Tracie] Yeah, yeah. Has it ever Tracie.- So intense, and the emotions have been for those of us on the progressive left, those of us who care about fighting racism and fighting systems of oppression, it's been really frustrating and aggravating and disheartening. And now there seems to be a glimmer of hope and joy. And I really wanted to, I was really, I've been looking forward to talking to you and processing this whole season with you because so many of the people with whom I am in the work here in Baltimore and around the state, spend most of their time being motivated by a deep sense of rage. Rage and frustration and anger. And that is what drives them. And though I recognize that those things can be very motivating, it doesn't feel sustainable. And you on the other hand, I mean, joy is in the name of your enterprise, and, and I've seen you do it as we work together, you really bring joy and you hold up moments of joy, even when the rest of us are just sort of burning out on rage. And so I wanted to ask you to like, I don't know, just talk a little bit about how you do that, where you're seeing sources of joy and how you just like, face the day every day and manage to find joy in seasons where some of us who care about the things you care about have a hard time finding it.- Thank you for that awesome intro, whew, there is so much I could say here, so much so that I'm interested in rolling out a whole suite of programs or possibly writing a book about it.- [Tracie] Yeah.- [April] Like a suite of like multiple programs about just this thing because it comes from a lot of different threads and elements of my being. And I'm really glad you asked this, right? You know, so where my mind is going is, one, I'm just feeling, there's so much I wanna say. I think this is something that I say a lot on this podcast.(laughing) Appreciate everybody's patience and kindness and love. But I wanted to speak to this piece about rage, right? Like that you were talking about and that so many folks run on rage. And also in my circles I feel like it's not just rage, it's also just terror and fear and concern and heartache.- [Tracie] Yes, yes, yes.- And I generally don't, which doesn't mean I don't experience those things but you're right. You know, the name of my enterprise is Joyous Justice and it's very, very intentional, and comes from a very specific vision I have for the world and the best pathway I think there is to get there. But I wanna specifically circle back to this piece about rage, right? And like, unpack that a little bit around the fact that one way that one could describe or a couple different ways one could describe rage is that rage is this red, hot, anger that comes from boundaries being violated and, and hurt. And specifically, can come from profound hurt and suffering that has remained, remained unaddressed. And that from that rage can build. And so, it's really critical in my work to me and my overall perspective. And I wish people would stop emailing me. Maybe the email is for my birthdate. We're recording this on my birthday, yeay.- [Tracie] Happy birthday.- This is where we have the audience track going (cheering).(chuckles) And (sighing) there's a lot of real suffering and pain there. And so this feels like a tricky dance. And to the point where I've been very careful and kind of quiet and like in a little bit of a small place around some of the of this wanting to make sure that I'm not misunderstood, right? That, I believe that emotion has a really important and healing and powerful role to play in clarifying what our needs are. And it's just that over the course of my life's journey I've come to really value finding relief and healing and actively proactively seeking out healing modalities. Because while I don't believe that anger is a bad thing, I don't think that anger is for me and for a number of people I know. But not unnecessarily everyone, I don't wanna to make universal or oversimplified statements, is a, is a sustainable source of fuel or energy for, for people. To me, anger is an emotion that's incredibly important sign to let me know when boundaries and have been violated or there's a need that's being unaddressed and for me to address. And now I think what's tricky for a lot of activists and leaders is that we're living in a context where oppression continues to exist. And I think among many different things I could say right now, I want to live in a future that is just and joyous and whole and loving. And I have had a lot of success in my life in achieving and manifesting my goals in the end by bringing a number of the things that I'm looking for, by beginning to function from the mindset and the energy of where I want to be in the future. Which to me always practically made sense around the more I align with type of leader I want to be, the more I'll begin to embody that, the more quickly I can embody that now. And so I believe in that strategy very much. I've seen both in my own life and in the lives of leaders. I respect them bringing a number of wonderful things into the world by saying,"I see the reality around me, but I am going to live into the vision of where I think we're going and not be overly attached." Part of this moment, like I'm not numb to it or immune to it per se exactly. But I'm going to see what's happening and use that to further clarify what is needed and focus on the reality where that thing has been achieved and work my way backward from that point and move in the direction of that thing that seems so impossible. Whether that be desegregation or scientific inventions or finding cures for illnesses and conditions that people previously said were uncurable." Someone had to think that something was possible that everyone else said was impossible. And I believe, are you with me here? Maybe I should stop. I'm getting--- No, I'm following. I'm wondering though like really practically, like in those moments, in the moment where the person who is on the other side of the aisle or, you know, just takes a different viewpoint is saying things or doing things like fighting for policy that dehumanizes or de-legitimizes you know, like whether it's anti LGBTQ or, you know. Like the folks who are out there actively campaigning to prevent, to take away marriage from same-sex couples. And that rush of like anger and just sense of I mean I don't think you're wrong that rage is about boundaries. Because yeah, that person who says that,"I don't think that gay folks should be allowed to get married," are stepping on the boundary of you know.- Their civil lib, civil liberties.- [Tracie] Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I, I agree with you and your analysis of where it comes from. And can you walk me through, like in that moment when I'm like,"Argh, how dare you? How can you even think that? How are you...?" And then I fall into dehumanizing that other person. Like, "are you even human? That you could tell me that."- It's just, to me it's--- [Tracie] And I know it's not helping me.- [April] Right, well and so I, I, so, it's a few different things there's so much. And with my ADHD brain and it's like which, which thing, there's so much I could say here but I think, so a few core things and I love you bringing it back to the, I love living in theory land. But really pragmatically for me especially in light of all that's happening in the world, in the world around... Like we choose to focus on racial justice here but I believe both you and I also care about environmental sustainability and immigration, which also obviously we'll likely cover that in future episodes because that intersects very cleanly and evenly with, with race and racism. But just a range of other social justice issues that I'm interested in collective liberation and wellness for all living beings on this planet. And honestly, beyond. Any sphere in which I may be present in one way or another, I want there to be justice and wholeness and peace, right? Okay, I'm still back in theory land. Okay, pragmatically in that moment, to me there's too much at stake for me to waste my time putting my energy into focusing, having my energy drained by the things I don't want. I don't wanna spend a minute on that stuff. The only time I ever do, one is that it's just natural, it comes up. But I've been doing, I've been cultivating this practice now for almost 10 years and actually arguably longer. I, I've had teachers on it for almost 10 years. But intuitively when I was the president of the Jewish Multiracial Network, I noticed at times that certain folks would focus on talking about the troublemakers in the Jewish community who were advancing racism. And to me there was far too much positive work to be doing to move our issue forward, to bring more visibility to it. There were too many people, there were, we didn't have enough resources to meet the need to support the people who want to advance this. And that to me was worth our while and do that enough and grow that enough that some of these other things become irrelevant. Like starve it, like don't add oxygen to that fire. I want to be putting, I wanna be fanning the flames around fires that keep people warm and feed people who are hungry, and bring things we want into the world.- So your advice in that moment, in that moment of that rage rising, it sounds like what you're saying is to actually consciously say,"You know what? I don't wanna put the energy.- Pivot.- [Tracie] Yeah, I don't want to put my energy into this.- Pivot.- I actually, here I wanna turn away from this negative to something where my energy can move things forward." And, and it's a, it's a conscious act that you're--- Yes.- [Tracie] Advocating- It's a mindful conscious act. And here's what I would say, there's two, there's two different options here in my mind. If it is around something, like if I were queer a person in a queer relationship who was trying to get married. So when it's something, say if it's another man of color being shot by the police who is unarmed when it's clearly unjust, even if it's a little gray still street, like curbside execution is not due process and it's completely inhumane. Right. And so for me as the sister and daughter of men of color who have both been stopped at gunpoint before and thank God weren't shot. So there's two options. If it's not something, if it's something that brings up a fear in me that brings up emotion that I cannot pivot from, if it's triggered a trauma response or a response of pain I have a list of any number of proactive healing modalities that I engage in. If I'm in a safe place where I can just go to a restroom and cry, I will go and cry. So if something's coming up, because part of what also happens for folks, it even happens to me. I've noticed I had this epiphany the other day when I had an anxiety attack a couple months back that I realized was related to this issue that I had with AT&T, for another conversation. I realized because I lost my phone number of 20 years. And because I was so busy at the time I didn't allow, even though it's silly and I'll get a new line and it's fine, that there was sorrow and fear. And the time that I first got that number is when I was in college and when things are unstable in my life. And that was my first like thing of adulthood in a, in a, I mean I was in college but it was like I was my first bill that I was paying on my own.'Cause I ran up a phone bill with an ex with a then-boyfriend, my parents were like we're not paying these $600 phone bills, you're on your own. So, so that, so that, and so losing that was really symbolic. But I, because I was so busy, it was in the midst of the huge deluge that I received of hundreds of requests coming through and I didn't allow it to surface. And so then it resurfaced, in feelings of unconscious terror days later because I didn't give it a space. And so once I finally connected it after going to the pharmacy, like trying to go see a doctor and then doing the, making, eventually being like wait, this isn't anything. I think this is actually just an anxiety attack and not some amorphous illness. So, so (sighing) so there's two options. One I pivot. And if I can't pivot, then I engage in any a number of things that honor my feelings that surface them. I surface them. I let them come out. I cry, I call a friend. I do journaling. I, I process that. I listened to music that helps me get the emotion out. And then once I've gotten it out, I ask myself, how does this clarify what I want? And I begin to put my attention on that. Who are groups who are working, if I'm not already engaged, where are there groups that I can sign up for? Where, how can I instead of getting,'cause nothing is going to come out of in my mind what I've learned. And this is after years of learning and thinking about this and learning from different teachers and educators that almost, there's not going to be much because those folks are still going to do what they're doing. But what I need to do is begin to invest. That may clarify for me, if it's something that's important enough and upsetting enough, that that's something that I want to go in on with other folks and see, who's already organizing in this? How can I amplify their message? How can I donate to them? How can I put energy toward what I want in the world and place my focus on that? Because when I focus on that I remain productive and I remain engaged. And, yeah.- I'm going to reflect back to you something that you just said. That I think is really important. I'm, I'm saying this for myself. So maybe others will find it useful too. Because when you first said, talked about sort of a self-conscious pivot I thought, I thought I understood what you meant and I did, but I was adding something that you didn't say which I'm glad you went on to talk about, which is that you don't deny the anger.- No. No. It's always honored. No, it's always sacred.- And I think it's really, that's really, really important. And I don't think that we as a culture understand that or do it. I mean, we sort of, it's like, I, I know I fall prey to this that I feel like I somehow shouldn't be, I'm putting air quotes again around that word.- Right, right.- [Tracie] Having negative emotions. And so even when I started asking you this question I'm realizing now that behind the question was my desire to not feel those negative emotions. And I was mistakenly sort of projecting onto you that you somehow weren't feeling them but that's not at all what you're saying.- No. Oh, I have, I feel lots of feelings.- Yeah, no. I think this is really, really important. You're not saying you don't feel the negative emotions. You're saying you don't let them drive you. And that's different. And you honor them and you feel them. And then you decide where you want to put your energy. I love it.- And I want to specifically name what you're surfacing that I love. That's, it could be arguably the unofficial subtitle of our podcast, which is both-and- We have so many unofficial subtitles.(laughing)- One of them is both-and is because there's this either there's this intense entrenched either/or dynamic with anger and intense feelings that either it's totally fine and it's great. And like it's justified and it's fine to function from that place all the time or it's vilified and you need to not do it. And it's not appropriate. And it's not helpful. And to me it is solidly in the middle ground when we're, it just is. And in part it is what you make it. And to me either way it's something that, it's a, it's a part, it's, it's a part of our, what's the word? Not alarm system. It's a messenger. It's, it gives, it, to me, my emotions are, are guideposts for me that give me a sense of things that not always my brain can comprehend or does but does it too quickly for me to be able to process it. But when an emotion is lingering, that is helpful for me. And I, I leverage that. And at times I use that ferocity in rallies or in given spaces. And I don't even like making universal statements. I can tell for me that it is, it is not sustainable long-term fuel. And that as humans, it's helpful for us to have a range of different emotions. And I want to be honest too that at times when I'm angry or have intense negative emotions I think I'm more comfortable than a lot of folks are at processing them. But there are times where like I really like the light and I really liked joy. But ultimately I find that it's going to still, if there's something that needs to be surfaced it's going to keep knocking or it's going to manifest in some other way until I, you know, Thich Nhat Hanh talks a little bit about this. That we get to be present with it and, and ask the different emotions questions about what they want us to know. And that doesn't mean that they need to be there all the time. Just like we might have a great friend but that great friend doesn't, it'd be kind of weird if they were with you all the time. Like ideally you're going to be mingling with other people. Right, like if I were joyful all the time that would arguably be almost psychotic but I'm not. That's, that's the feeling that I strive for, where there's the most possibility where there's fun and creativity where solutions can just kind of come to me because there's a lightness and options are on the table. And there's abundance and many different, and, and it's beyond hope. It's saying, "I have, I have faith and I have some certainty." Or I add that to it. Like, I don't think joy in and of itself inherently means that, but in that state of being it's where it's saying,"I am so committed to the outcome that I want that I'm going to begin to align with that before I see all the signs," whether it's specifically for me or in the context of movement work. And I've, I've had such meaningful moments at times where I, when I ultimately do connect with other folks who have been those people where at times we explicitly have this conversation, or bottle things up at different movement moments. In the past 10 years where, I don't know if other people are having the same thought but I guess they are, I'm guessing they are. And I'm going to begin going out, going out to marches. I'm going to trust and doing the different things I can do with the people I know. And I'm going to trust that there are also other people who, even though it feels a little scary, are also going to be stepping out courageously and trusting that also other people will be there to meet them along the journey.- You know what's coming up for me right now. This is really, I don't know where this is coming from, but I'm remembering a professor of mine from college. He was a sculpture professor from the fine arts department Johnny Coleman. Beautiful black man with long dreads. And I remember in my mind, he is this just really creative, really brilliant and really relaxed man. So this is 25 years ago I'm talking. But it was, those last two words that I just said brilliant and relaxed, that was like, kind of like blew my mind that you could be both of those things. Because prior to really getting to know professor Coleman, I'm not sure that I understood that those two things can go together. I thought smart meant anxious. That's all I could see.- Right? Because in the context of white supremacy culture smart means that you're perfect which is impossible to maintain and all these other things. Right?- Yeah, and so, it was like the only those two things. I, I didn't, he, he modeled for me. We never talked about it. I mean, it was like, I was a 19 year old kid. But I, I just, that's kind of what's coming up for me as you're talking about the way that you approach it. And the way, like is that for so many of us, whether we're, whether we think of ourselves as activists or not. I think having model even like thinking about the idea that there could be a way to do this while honoring the negative, the so-called negative emotions, but actually cultivating joy while doing the work is frankly revolutionary. In the same way that professor Coleman's brilliance while combined with just a relaxed and like comfortable attitude was revolutionary for me.- Right? And, and I love what, yeah, I'm just, I'm so feeling what you're saying. And it also makes me want to clarify that as I've been taught by different teachers joy is toward the very top of the scale. But I, but I would also invite if people have varying relationships, relationships with joy that you mentioned relaxed. There's a whole range of optimal ideal feelings that also I choose from like joy is the shorthand cause that's the pinnacle like "this is the best as it can get."(chuckling) You know, but also like relaxed and peaceful and hopeful and words like possibility and curiosity and wonder. Like there's all kinds of--- Even comfort. Even comfort feels important.- Relief, relief, release. That, you know, and that, you know as I've learned, there's a whole scale and anything that's a step up that's helpful to reach for and to do the things not to force, not to force yourself to be in that state but to do the work that helps you feel closer to that. It's just like a core, a core piece here for me that I hold in these situations is as much as possible whatever is happening to hold that there is still goodness in this world. And there are still good things that are happening and to maintain a balanced perspective. Which doesn't mean at times that I don't go to really deep and profound dark places and into the shadows to process profound mourning when I lose someone I love or when something deeply painful happens to me around racism and, and in my community or any number of different things that happen. But I don't stay in that place because I also hold. And it's like the thing I say, and it's, it's deeper than this, but that like every moment babies are being born and new flowers are blooming. And it's important to me to keep a balanced, sustainable perspective to hold that amidst some of the losses and battles that are being lost or people I adore who are being lost in the midst of the injustice, that there also are still moments of justice that are happening. And even if I'm not aware of them, that I hold that they are happening and they are, that they're feasible and I need to be in as robust of a state of mind as possible. So I can do everything I can to contribute to making that be more of the case and reducing the instances of injustice and pain that show up and occur far more than many of us would like.- Yeah. Yeah. And, and here we are at the both-and again. Right. That, I think that's, you're right. That is the unofficial title of this conversation, this ongoing conversation as the both-and. Because even what you're saying is that even in the moments of the worst injustice: yes, and there are also other things happening that are beautiful and joyful and, and worth we, we need to find ways to try and hold both.- Yeah. And that even in the midst of like a teacher from whom I, I've learned, teaches to ask in moments that are really difficult, that I've found very, very helpful is when something awful happens to say to myself,"I wonder what wonderful things will come from this?"- You, you used that with me recently in like within the past six months where there was something that really hard that happened in my life. And you asked that question and it, it, it works- And I ask it at times. And I've, I've said it. I said it when my father had a medical crisis I've said it when a huge chunk of ice fell from a roof and landed on and cracked up over my head. Right. Like I've said it at times when I did not have an answer in that moment, but I put it, I put out the possibility and consistently over the course of day, rather than being like, why did this happen? And then, and then I might still think like, this is awful. It's not like I ignore negative things. A Jew of color I adore, Jackie Baldwin once said in a gathering, you know, "All shit is fertilizer." And I, like, I was like, that is like a quote from my life. And I've, and I've adapted it to say,"All shit is fuel or fertilizer." That I've decided in my life that something is either going to fertilize. And when to use that garbage that, that dookie to fertilize soil and water the seeds that I want to water. Not let it shift the seeds that I'm watering but to continue to water the seeds I want and use that or use it as fuel. But that it's not a long-term fuel but to make meaning of it in a way that continues to move me in the direction of my goals which are mostly around wanting everyone (laughing) to be healthy and free and live the lives that, that they want in ways that contribute to collective coexistence.- Yeah. So your question about what wonderful thing will happen, will come of this is a great reminder. I, I will sometimes get stuck thinking,"It shouldn't be like this." whatever that thing happened, the ice, the medical.- Yes, yes.- [Tracie] Whatever it was. it shouldn't have happened. And that's actually not a useful phrase. Because it did. It did happen, so now what?- It did, right.- And, and your question actually just shifts it naturally without having to like take the word "should." Like--- This has happened remaining in the present moment.- [Tracie] Exactly.- [April] Like this has as awful as it is, as much as I didn't want this to be the reality, it is the reality. And so now, yeah, so now what?- [Tracie] Yeah.- And one, there's going to be a lot of likely crying for me and, or shaking or whatever it is I need to do to process. And also when I'm ready, and I don't do before I'm ready, I don't force it. And I was like and it's when it, when it feels like it's, it's ready to come out of me, then I'll, then I'll say that thing. I'll, I'll acknowledge that thing, but it's not forcing it. But it is when we are ready when we feel ready for that to embrace that.- [Tracie] Yeah. Yeah. That's really smart. Well, happy birthday April.- [April] Thank you.- Thank you for sharing your wisdom with me on your birthday.- [April] Thanks. And there's so much more to come. There's so many different things and strategies and techniques and stuff. that I'm excited about.- [April] Thanks for tuning in. Our show's theme music was composed by Elliot Hammer. You can find this track and other beats on Instagram at Elliot Hammer. If this episode resonated with you please share it and subscribe. To join the conversation visit jewstalkracialjustice.com where you can send us a question or suggestion, access our show notes and learn more about our team. Take care, until next time and stay humble and keep going.