The Joyous Justice Podcast
The Joyous Justice Podcast
Ep 34: The quicksand of comparing pain
Why do we sometimes find ourselves arguing over whose pain is the worst? What effect does that competition, also known as Oppression Olympics, have on us? How can we find an alternative to the very real impulse to argue? April and Tracie dig into these questions and more.
Heads Up! We are taking some time off in the month of May 2021. You'll be able to enjoy reprises of our favorite episodes every Thursday in May. New content will resume in June.
Find April and Tracie's full bios and submit topic suggestions for the show at www.JewsTalkRacialJustice.com
Learn more about Joyous Justice where April is the founding and fabulous (!) director and Tracie is a senior partner: https://joyousjustice.com/
Read more of Tracie's thoughts at bmoreincremental.com
Resources mentioned:
April's blog post for Lilith Magazine, When Jewish Space Laser Jokes Help the Enemy
Jews for Economic and Racial Justice (JFREJ)
HowToFightAntisemitism.com
IfNotNow
Bend The Arc
Cherie Brown on the intersection of racism and antisemitism.
Our previous conversation about Oppression Olympics.
- [Tracie] adrienne maree brown says that we are all navigating a sea of harm. Sometimes you hear folks arguing over whose harm, whose pain, is the worst. We unpack this phenomenon, and think about different ways to deal with the sea of harm.- [April] This is Jews Talk Racial Justice with April and Tracie.- [Tracie] A weekly show hosted by April Baskin and Tracie Guy-Decker.- [April] In a complex world, change takes courage.- [Tracie] Wholehearted relationships can keep us accountable.- Guess what, Tracie?- What?- Today, I am excited for us to talk about one of my least favorite subjects, and that would be, (laughing) Oppression Olympics!- Oppression Olympics, man. Right, so Oppression Olympics, which is the phrase that is used to talk about the one upsmanship that people sometimes will have about how bad it is for them, so for instance, if you've ever heard, antisemitism is by far the worst form of oppression, or racism is absolutely the most harmful oppression or whatever, insert the ism. And then some sort of superlative about why its victims are worse off than any other victims of isms. And, I actually wanted to maybe start our conversation with a specific example, where I saw this happening, so that we can unpack it and talk about maybe some antidotes, and also like why it's not helpful, which I think April you have a really keen analysis on that piece. So right before COVID, I went to a conference. Thank God, I don't think anybody who went got sick, which really is a miracle, because it was a conference in February of 2020, but anyway, it was a Jewish professional conference. And at one of the like, you know, social hours, I ended up talking with a young professional, so she was fairly, fairly new out of college. And she was telling me about just how much worse it is, arguably worse for Jews than it is for Black folks. And I don't remember the reasons that she was telling me that, but I remember my initial reaction. My initial reaction was actually to argue with her about why Black folks have it worse than Jews in America. And then I caught myself.- Let me tell you, lady.- But I caught myself and I said,"Well, actually, why are we making it a competition?"Like, antisemitism is terrible and racism is terrible."Why are we competing over who has it worse?"That doesn't feel useful?" I don't know if this young woman heard me, but it was a kind of an interesting touch point for me to really start to examine this Oppression Olympics phenomenon, because even though I had thought about this idea before, like when I had this person present it to me, my initial reaction was to actually engage at the same level to say, no, no, that's not worse, this other thing is worse. And so my initial impulse was actually to take the bait, and participate in the Oppression Olympics. So, I just want to name that that's like, this is a thing that we do.- That a lot of people do, and I think even some of the people,'cause there are a number of people, it's not uncommon for people in social change work to say they hate Oppression Olympics, and that doesn't mean that at times they or we also can't still fall into that trap, you know? I was discussing with you before we started recording that, as you shared that story, that image in my mind is like quicksand, that when one starts comparing and has this either/or frame, of it's either we have it worse or you do, so it's going to be us, because our pain matters, and your pain essentially is not as bad as ours. Like, not that it doesn't matter, but it's not as bad as ours, essentially implying that it isn't as bad, or that it's not as important, and when that scarcity happens, it just leads like quick sand, where if you try to get in at that level or get on the mud with someone, or get in the mud pit or sand pit with them, you both just start sinking. Sinking deeper into the oppression trap, that our oppressors and this oppressive society have set up for people who are, for members of communities that have both been targeted for destruction, and have been targeted by oppression and harm and continue to be to this day. So, it is very important that we lock arms and like start to pull ourselves up instead of trying to be, instead of falling into the trap of being pitted against each other which just leads to us sinking deeper and deeper and deeper into that quick sand.- It occurs to me --- You know --- Sorry.- Go ahead.- Well, as you're talking it occurs to me, that actually part of, I think, the impulse is that other pain doesn't matter. There's an either/or to it. It's not,- Right.- I don't think it's conscious, like if I had said to that young woman, like, are you saying racism doesn't hurt people? I'm sure she would have said,"No, of course it does." But in that moment, when you kind of get stuck in that scarcity of like, what is worse, there is a degree of diminishing what matters, diminishing what counts. So I think that's an interesting...- And I can't remember if I shared this one on another episode or just in a blog post that I, on a Facebook post that then became a blog post published on Lilith, but I love that song, that I learned from summer camp,(singing in foreign language) Shout out to my Camp Swig folks, and other camping Jewish youth folks, right? And it's like, a good deed leads to a good deed and a sin leads to a sin, and that feels so true here. I think what's important to note for people, is that when people do that, it sets up an inherent competition. It further entrenches an either/or dynamic, so you are setting yourself up, that unless someone has elevated thinking and/or elevated analysis, and has done enough healing work that when you say something, because that's hurtful, when someone says something like that, that unless they've done work so that when they have experienced hurt, they're able to manage that and then raise to a higher level, you're also setting, a person who says this is setting themselves up to be targeted by the same thing, having the same thing refracted back at them, as you said, Tracie, right? Like you're not even someone who subscribes to that belief system, but just by the nature of the either-or dynamic of it, in trying to counter it, you can kind of fall into doing the same thing on the opposite end. And it becomes this teeter-totter, as opposed to, I don't know how to like connect these metaphors, but like, as opposed to a circle where we're holding hands, where we are self-possessed in our own narrative and our community's need for healing, and we are in solidarity with other folks, and saying, we're not going to let this link, or this chain, be broken. And our peoples have been broken and hurt, or have been broken in the past or wounded in the past, but together we are not going to let go. We're not going to let go. And Oppression Olympics is a letting go, right? And so, did you wanna say something?'Cause I wanna transition, so if you wanna chime in here.- I wanna name that, talking about this now, like more than a year into the pandemic, is actually like I'm seeing new ways of the way that this dynamic plays out, in the way that my pandemic experience was the worst year of my life. And so was somebody else's, but it's different. My worst year is totally different than somebody else's worst year. And thank God I'm well, and no one I love died of COVID, and also it was my worst year. And so, it's just like, this past year, the experience of all of us going through this horrible reality of a global pandemic, is really like adding a layer of understanding for me, in terms of how the Oppression Olympics doesn't serve. Because for me to say like my year was worse, because my husband was stationed away, and I had to do this, and like I changed jobs, like it doesn't matter. Like, yeah, that was the way in which my year was the worst year, but it was my worst. It wasn't the worst of anybody in the world, and trying to determine who's was the worst, it's just a waste of energy and time. Anyway --- And it is, and I think that's part of the point. I think that's part...- Exactly.- Of the purpose of it, is to waste good people's time, on focusing on something that is not as that's a pit it's not going to lead to anything good. Here's the alternative y'all. It's just this either/or is a setup, again, as we often say we can lean into a both/and and I'm gonna leave that theoretical point aside for a moment and say, to me what feels sacred and important about this subject and pardon me for the people who are watching on video. Most people, I think, listen on the podcast but we have a number of people who watch on video, hi friends including some of my mom's friends in Sacramento hi. And I'm noticing that my hair is frizzier, Tracie says hi too, but my hair is frizzier than normal. So I'm feeling self-conscious, I don't normally play with my hair as much, but it is what it is. So, to me, the kindest thing that I can say is that it is an unsophisticated, that's a strong word. Is an unrefined attempt to advocate fiercely for your people. But here's the thing, you can advocate fiercely for your people without stepping on another people, and/or as I said, at times I don't know if it's explicitly in the Black community or it's a working class thing, without talking out the side of yo' mouth. Because often when people play oppression Olympics, they're often talking out the side of they mouth. They do not, they're not in a position. They don't actually know the true stats or the nature of hate crimes for Black people, and/or vice versa, for Jews. And so you don't have to actually. There those people, can speak on behalf of their own people. And which isn't to say there isn't a place for allies, but that is not allyship, that is the opposite of allyship. And what I would say is that this is an unrefined attempt to fight the erasure of your people's pain. But here is an important note. Is any group that is oppressed, is experiencing that same eraser. So, unless you have done extensive education, like like a degree, a degree, in a subject, you should not... even if you did, like, it, but if you did, you would know that you can't say, that it's worse for one group than another it's different. And in certain ways, I'm sure in a number of ways, it's worse for Jews. In other ways, it is incredibly worse for Black people, in other ways it is worse for Armenians that it depends on what category you're talking about but if we are going to be holistic in our approach in general, it's not helpful to compare. And it's more worthwhile to commit to advocating for whatever group you're advocating for, and honor and listen when other folks say that they are oppressed too. And it's a trick that we have been conditioned to believe that we need to basically take on without realizing it the role of the oppressor and push down to those other groups while they push us down, it's essentially, as often is said a crabs in the bucket dynamic, as opposed to saying crap, we are all in the bucket and we are all in pain, and our pain is different, but I'm going to have humility. I'm going to have humility and kindness to say, I've heard a bit, and I know a little bit but I don't know your story. And I'm going to believe you especially when it's a whole group of people who are talking about what they are suffering or what they have suffered, or what they're afraid might be coming based upon past events. And that we get to work on this together, and stop distracting ourselves. And if and when we find ourselves in the trap which I have to at times, and I've been on this not into Oppression Olympics train since like 2002, when I first heard this phrase from a college classmate, right? And still because it's quicksand at times if we find ourselves in that quick sand, some strategies we can use are to say, you know what, actually, I wasn't trying to discount you it was hurtful to me when you discounted the stories of my people or another people that I care about. But I want you to know that I hear you in your pain. And I just want to point out that it doesn't have to be either/or, and that your story and the story of your family and your community does deserve to be heard. And it doesn't have to be at the expense of another group of people. And I'm here for you. And I hope that you'll be here for my people and these other peoples.- I think the other thing that I don't know if I learned it from you, but I certainly got clarity around it from you April is that sowing Oppression Olympics is a tactic of the other side of the oppressors, right? Because if the crabs are fighting each other, then we're actually organizing to fight the true oppressor.- It's a manifestation of settler colonialism of white supremacy culture, also in patriarchy, white nationalism.- Yeah, and so I think that also can be a useful, like for instance with that young woman who I was speaking to at the conference. I think maybe if I had said to her, actually I think sort of saying one is worse than the other, is like pitting us, pitting us against each other as one of the ways white nationalists... Is one of the tactics of white nationalists to keep us from working with those who are our natural allies. So, let's find a different way. Let's find a different way.- Lets find a different way and I hear you, and I agree with you that antisemitism is far worse than is often spoken about in the media and in a variety of spaces. And it would be worthwhile for us to find ways through relationship, to to bring more visibility to this issue. I notice at times as a side note which could be a whole other episode that at times when Jews are new to movement spaces, a challenge they can experience is that they may be seeking visibility, but it's not the right time or place that that might be a space that's working for racial justice, where people of color have organized and spent a lot of time possibly years working to build that platform. And that's not the space just like it's not necessarily the space for certain groups to come in uninvited to Jewish communal spaces and say,"You all need to pay attention to this." Which to me is different from us inviting people in or allies coming and saying,"We'd like to come and present something to you"and be in partnership." That feels very different. And there's just a lot of nuance with that. But I think to your point about what you just said about what you'd say to the person, as I was saying that I would say which just occurred to me I think I just said it, that I would say you're right. Like, you're right about the fact that it is bad today and there isn't enough attention and it's subtle and it's sneaky and there's more education that needs to be done. And are you aware that there are groups like Jews For Racially and Economic Justice and it closed now but I think the website's still there but like How to Fight Antisemitism, If Not Now, that there are various Jewish organizations that have various political perspectives that are the educator and social change leader, Cherie Brown also has a wonderful, thoughtful, interculturally competent understanding of antisemitism, but how to address it in ways that don't undermine those issues. And the same goes for other communities too that there's a lot of pain, unaddressed and unhealed pain and people want to be heard. And so the best thing we can do is really listen. And there's a way I can't fully make it as polished as I want, but there's a way to potentially I'm gonna take a risk here, to play on this idea of Oppression Olympics, but flip it. And rather than us competing, noticing,"Whoa you're an oppression athlete too."Like what obstacles have you overcome?" And this team over here, and this person who's a part of multiple teams like me. Wow, like what has that experience been like? What did you have to go through? None of us chose, this is not a voluntary Olympics. We're here because it relates to our survival. And if we want to keep living on this planet under these conditions, we've had to build skills. But I also hope that we can build. And often we've been alone in that and we didn't have enough support but this is an opportunity. This is a new moment. So as much as we can invest in our own healing, through listening campaigns through therapy, through co-counseling, through generative somatics, through journaling, through a range of different contemplative practices, the more we can start to be present to the opportunity that's right in front of us. And notice that rather than thinking of ourselves as alone, that at times when some of us are telling these stories about oppression Olympics, we could be burning a bridge with someone right in front of us. Would love to join our team, and would say,"I'm here for you and I'm so sorry that happened."How, how can I help?"What can we do together?" And so I hope in time people feel comfortable to set aside Oppression Olympics and notice that there are, may not be as much as you'd like but there are a lot of allies and people who want to stand with us and nearly, almost with certainty, every single one of those people, even if they are white Christian, heteronormative, cis-gendered, males, we all have experienced immense pain in our lives. Immense pain, almost always in part because of oppression because the people who are oppressed are hurt, but there's often a lot of hurt and fierce and violent boundaries, for those who are in the non target group, in order to maintain that oppression. And so please.- It just was occurring to me. We've spoken in other contexts recently about the fact that white fragility is sometimes aimed at other white people. Like there are many ways that...- Racism hurts us all.- Yeah.- I don't know if that was what you're gonna say, go ahead.- Not those words, But that was the sentiment, yeah.- Yeah, and so I think the last thing that I want to say here is that at times people say there's no hierarchy of pain,- Audre Lorde.- And what was that?- Audre Lorde, there is no hierarchy of oppression.- It's an Audre Lord quote- Yeah, but specifically I've heard people say that there's no hierarchy of pain. And I like to be careful about that because while I think that Oppression Olympics is not helpful, I don't know about you lovely listener, but I am clear in my life what I've seen in the sense of what I know of human experience, someone who has experienced far more pain than some people. And I'm also someone who I know without a doubt that there are people who have experienced far more suffering, far more suffering right now, historically. And I've been through some tough stuff but there are people who have been through far, far worse in my lifetime, let alone in the past. And so I love how adrienne maree brown says,"We're operating in a sea of harm." And in any given moment over the arc of our lives, as well as in any given moment, some of us are hold are experiencing more pain and both because literally it's worse. And sometimes it might not be worse but it might be the first time we're experiencing and experiencing something and we have no tools to properly process it. And so this leans, this kind of leads to the thing that we see in a number of memes and the like where in general it's just really great to practice compassion and humility. And to be very clear that oppression whether it is sexism and goodness like gender oppression, whoa, what transgender and gender non-conforming, and gender non-binary and gender queer folks go through, which to me is in part a manifestation of male dominance and misogyny and patriarchy whoa, and I could go through this about different, like various disabilities. Like there is so much oppression in this world. I think the best thing we can do is to know that there's some things we know, and there's far more that we do not, and it's bad. I also believe that there's lots of goodness and beauty and wonder and awesome in the world. But in terms of oppression, we're all swimming and navigating through this sea of unhealed harm. And it's a distraction, it's a distraction, and a disempowerment, a tool of disempowerment, for us to say, who has it worse, rather than us working to support each other, through this and to lift each other up.- Yeah, and to get healing. I mean, that's the way you--- Get healing, exactly.- Yeah. And I think that's ultimately the anecdote because the the antidote, sorry, antidote, because the either/or sort of implies that the triage is actually a line and we might run out, we might run out of healing. And so we need to get in line first, but there healing is something we can absolutely have an abundance mindset around, right?- And healing to me is another manifestation of love. And I think at least in principle, people understand that there is an abundance of love that there's no capacity to love our heart can hold. And it's true of healing as well that there's plenty of healing and love to go around. And it helps if we nurture it. Sorry, you were saying?- I'm just thinking about sort of the idea of no hierarchy of pain that idea, or like I've mentioned it before on the podcast that my grandmother used to my great grandmother used to say, if I cut my--- No hierarchy of pain or oppression.- Pain in this case that you were pointing to. And so my grandmother used to say or my great grandmother used to say,"If I cut my finger and you cut off your leg,"my finger still hurts." And the leg is worse. Obviously the triage should tre... The triage nurse needs to treat the leg first. And the finger still deserves a band-aid or whatever the healing is, like there's enough. And that was her point. Her point was perspective doesn't need to equal erasure. That was my great-grandmother's point. And so I think that that's ultimately what at the base of what we're saying is that we don't need to erase others in order to find healing ourselves.- All of these things can co-exist and be seen and societal structure doesn't allow for that but we make up society and society depends on us to establish and set the rules. And the more we can not just go on autopilot with what the matrix has told us but say,"Actually, I don't have to step on somebody else."I can advocate for myself"and also still be supportive of other communities as well." And that actually the more we can lean into and sometimes its obvious other times, we just take a little bit of time or ask for help, but the more we can think of solutions that help all of us or more of us, and increasingly more of us, the better off we will all be. And it's totally possible. It's just a shift. It's just a shift. Fortunately, that's toward greater kindness, and support and solidarity (laughs).- All right, y'all this is our last episode before our little break, don't worry you will still have Jews Talk Racial Justice with April and Tracie. It will just be some reruns. Some of our favorites from season one for the month of May. And then we will be back with you with new content in June.- Yay, thanks for tuning in our show's theme. Music was composed by Elliot Hammer. You can find this track and other beats on Instagram at Elliot Hammer. If this episode resonated with you, please share it, and subscribe. To join the conversation, visit juicetalkracialjustice.com, where you can send us a question or suggestion access our show notes and learn more about our team. Take care until next time and stay humble, and keep going.