Ep 32: Interrogating the Antisemitism Litmus Test

In another episode tied to their "Flip the Script" resource, April and Tracie investigate the notion that the presence of antisemitism in progressive movements disqualifies those movements from Jewish involvement. Recognizing that, like all systemic oppressions, antisemitism is everywhere, Jews Talk Racial Justice wonders why engagement in progressive spaces feels optional to some when engagement in other spaces where antisemitism is equally present is not.

Content warning: April makes passing reference to past sexual assault.

Heads Up! We are taking some time off in the month of May 2021. You'll be able to enjoy reprises of our favorite episodes every Thursday in May. New content will resume in June.

Find April and Tracie's full bios and submit topic suggestions for the show at www.JewsTalkRacialJustice.com

Learn more about Joyous Justice where April is the founding and fabulous (!) director and Tracie is a senior partner: https://joyousjustice.com/
Read more of Tracie's thoughts at bmoreincremental.com

Resources:
Get your own copy of our Flip the Script resource by completing this form.

Read about the UN World Conference Against Racism in Durban, South Africa

Find more about Cherie Brown's Anti-Semitism: Why is it everyone's concern?  here.  

Transcript

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- [Tracie] In this episode, we dig into a complaint we sometimes hear from members of our Jewish communities. It's the idea that because there is antisemitism on the left, we can't or shouldn't engage. We unpack that idea and offer some alternative framing.- [April] This is Jews Talk Racial Justice with April and Tracie. A weekly show hosted by April Baskin and Tracie Guy-Decker. In a complex world change takes courage. Wholehearted relationships can keep us accountable. This is a very important topic, Tracie.- Yeah.- Yeah.- What are we gonna talk about today?- Yeah, so I'm excited to talk about this concept or this thought that a number of people can have within our Jewish community, that the statement goes, because there is antisemitism on the left, I can't be part of progressive movements.- Right, right, right. It's the classic, it is the most common reason, I'll hesitate to call it an excuse, but it sounds like an excuse to me. Is the most common reason I have heard from my Jewish community about why we can't, or they don't want to support Black Lives Matter for instance.- Exactly, and also other progressive causes too I've seen, and there is so much to unpack here because so one, first and foremost, which is not, I wanna kinda just get right into the practical implications and reframes for this, more so than the huge body of significant work around analyzing and developing and understanding that antisemitism is leveraged or accusations, whether false or real is leveraged as a wedge issue to undermine progressive liberation movements. And that is a strategy specifically of white nationalists. And not only in the United States but abroad, we've seen this play out in England and at the UN conference for, I'm blanking on the precise name, but something along the lines of like racial justice that took place in Durban, South Africa. That this is something that is a global strategy of white nationalists or, essentially xenophobic white people. So that aside, so we could actually potentially do an additional episode about that, but I really wanna just get right to the heart of this issue. And for those of you who don't have it already, if you visit joyousjustice.com, as of right now, at some point we might change this, but currently if you hear it happen to hear this later, but currently we have a free resource that's available on our page, if you don't already have it, that covers these sorts of beliefs or questions that commonly serve as stumbling blocks to affect sustainable and even joyous racial justice work. And this is one of those principles. And so in that resource, just to some context, we spend a lot of, we put a lot of the, or primarily put attention on the fact that, for one in general, this statement in and of itself indicates to me that the person who was saying it doesn't have a solid understanding and this is not from a place of judgment, but just from a place of a sociological and interpersonal assessment of understanding where a person is, which is very important to me because it's not always possible, but as much as I can, I try to meet people where they are. And this statement to me is indicative that this person doesn't understand how systemic oppression works. Because, if a person does understand how systemic oppression works, they understand that anything that is a manifestation of systemic oppression, like sexism, racism, antisemitism,- Ableism.- Xenophobia, ableism, it is ubiquitous. It is everywhere. So to say it's on the left, is redundant to me. Like, I've been saying this lately, kinda like it's like Tuesday, like, oh, okay. Like if somebody said, oh, there's racism on the left. I'd be like, of course.- Right.- It's like, is that new? So, which is not to condone it, but it's just to have, and so I'm not, I'm neither trying to dismiss or diminish the importance of that fact that is very important and deserves a lot of attention and care and strategies to mitigate and reduce antisemitism wherever it shows up, particularly within spaces that are attempting to advance justice, that is important. So I wanna be clear here and not be misunderstood. And there was another thing that I was going to say about it too, that I don't remember right now. But that's sort of my, like sort of introductory remarks to this, and also I wanna pause because I've kicked us off, I wonder if there's anything else you wanna share.- Oh, it's just, it really resonates for me what you're saying that it's everywhere. And especially when we then put in conversation in the same conversation, other systems of oppression, sexism, ableism, homophobia, that, like if I were to refuse to engage in any spaces where there is sexism, like, I couldn't be Jewish. Like I couldn't, I couldn't do anything.- Couldn't finish college.- I couldn't own a car, you know like, there's just, and obviously I don't, I do what I can to fight the sexism where I see it, including in myself, but that doesn't, it's not a reason to not engage in those spaces. So that's really helpful framing for me.- Right? And so I think people are coming from different places, but one thing that's, I'm reminded of and is becoming more clear as I was listening to you Tracie is, I want to be clear and precise and grounded in this analysis and reframe we're sharing, and I also want to add a little bit of gentleness.(Almost said "jealousy," no, that's not...) Gentleness, because to me, this sort of response is indicative of either an oppressor mindset or an internalized oppressed mindset of someone or a group of people who have been deeply hurt and have not had adequate healing.- Yeah.- And I think in our community there might be a little bit of both dynamics happening but it's more heavily focused on the trauma, right? And so, as you were talking Tracie, right? Like in other areas of our lives, it is more clear, it can be more clear for many or most of us that, yeah, things aren't perfect around this thing, by a long shot, it's actually quite oppressive and we need to still engage. And I mean, you just basically gave the formula for it and do so in ways that honor our humanity and when and where appropriate and where we are, and a part of that appropriateness is determined by are we supported and are we safe in doing it? We also stand up and stand up for the things we believe in and navigate situations in ways that not only get us through but that also are mindfully and skillfully agitational around advancing the values that are most important to us. Whether that be around gender equity or equality or racial justice or safety and respect for any element of our identity, including our Jewish identity. So I think to me there's a lot of different things I could say here, but change, effective lasting change, to me most often happens in the context of connection and relationship. And also separating ourselves from issues that are important to us, because certain things aren't perfect or are even problematic, in general is not a good long-term strategy. If we're talking about one person who continually does things, that's different than talking about movements or communities. And I see a lot of people, I see people of color navigating this issue as well in terms of racism, right? And so the leaders to whom I feel accountable for the most part align with my perspective, but not entirely. So I'll be clear about some of that, this facet of my perspective. But I do not believe in distancing myself from contexts just because they aren't where I think they should be. And especially when we're talking about liberation movements or movements for social change or entire political parties that we otherwise in a number of ways align with, it's important to me that we stay engaged. If for no other reason that, and part of this for me also comes from my Black identity that I don't want the opponent to win. Like if I leave, if I abdicate my space, and there is a line here, like I'm not saying there's not a line, there is a line here where there's a certain amount of abuse or humiliation or oppression, that that's the point at which I say, I cut my losses. But for the most part in progressive spaces that I am aware of, now there are exceptions and anecdotes that I've heard, where in specific contexts with a specific leader, something is really off. And I am not talking, where somebody is explicitly targeting, but if someone is simply, and it's not even so simply, if someone is, if a leader or a group of people are saying something that I find problematic or are associating with someone I find problematic, but I look at the rest of their body of work and what they are doing, and it is in alignment with what I care about, and I see that they are sincere and good at what they do, and I also notice a propensity for growth and learning, that's a time when I often hunker down, especially if it's an issue I care about, and I say, I see this person is doing the best they can with the knowledge and understanding they have. And it's not quite as simple as they haven't met me yet,'cause that's also can be problematic in terms of tokenization, but also like I think that there's room here in the context of relationship with not only me but also with other folks who share my values and identity. And in general, I don't think ostracizing or exclusion or shaming, are helpful for change. And I think the bigger issue here that's not talked about, that often the subtext of people, the subtext of the statement that "there's antisemitism on the left and I cannot engage," is a tremendous amount of unhealed terror about what has happened in the past and the ways that the situation might mirror other circumstances as a number of people know and maybe some don't, but as a number of folks may know within our community, those are were very assimilated and thriving prior to the rise of the Third Reich, prior to Hitler's reign, and the Holocaust. And I would invite people acknowledging that often and I have experienced this, so I say it very sincerely and completely non-judgmentally and from a place of profound love and clarity, as I see it that there's healing that needs to take place because like I just having this thought that maybe in part where some people are resistant is because there actually are so many positives and maybe it reminds them of times in the past that preceded extremely antisemitic moments. And to me that again, is not a reason to pull back, but to say, if in fact I felt that way and I felt that danger is to lean in, because that shadow of danger, that a phantom feeling of danger, right? If I was, if my trauma response triggered, but I'm also able to say that again. What I'm saying maybe is not, it takes healing. I know that it takes some healing work to process any terror that's coming up and process pain from our families and perhaps our own life experience that has been unhealed, so that we can start to be more present and not transpose past experiences of moments of acute antisemitism into the present moment, in a way that keeps us from actually acknowledging that right now is pretty safe for Jews. And there has definitely been an uptick in antisemitism but we also have a lot of allies right now. And disengaging isn't going to increase our allies. I think another thing, the last piece that I'll say here right now, cause it looks like you wanna jump in Tracie, is that for me and for a number of my partners with whom I work, we are really clear that our safety comes through solidarity, through relationship across lines of difference. Because to me, when I look over Jewish history, that has been the difference maker. And at times it hasn't been enough but what has saved us has not been our isolation or the amount of money we were able to accumulate or our success or upward mobility, it was allies who are willing to reach out and put themselves on the line or to interrupt things that were happening in partnership with us, that the people who got saved, that the people who survived, it was often upstanders and people who intervened. And so to me, continuing to cultivate those relationships around any area in which I'm oppressed and not spending time with people who are bigoted. I am not asking y'all to do that, but I'm saying there are plenty of allies, of active allies right now or potential allies who are not, who those seeds are there but they haven't yet been watered. And as much as I can do that work. So I wanna have you dive in Tracie, and then I also wanna speak to levels of engagement with this that I think is important to clarify.- Well, I just wanna reflect back to you what I'm hearing that you're not minimizing nor--- No, or denying that it's there, it's there.- Nor denying that antisemitism is there, right?- Yeah.- And also there are multiple levels here, there's the interpersonal and there's institutional and then there's movement work. And you're also distinguishing between those things, those different levels. If there's, in the same way that we were talking about sexism earlier, if there's a specific person who I need to cut off because of their sexist behavior, until they work on that sexist behavior, then that's a legitimate move to protect yourself. And also just wanna name that when we talk about antisemitism on the left, and I think about, if some of my friends and co-religionists of color had sort of used a litmus test on me and my Jewish spaces with racism, like--- In the Jewish community more broadly.- Yeah, and the Jewish spaces I personally inhabit, then we would have no Jews of color or--- Yeah, I wouldn't be in the Jewish community.- Right, and so I think--- And that's important (indistinct).- Well, I think that, it's that litmus test and then I'll let you continue.- No please continue.- But I think that's the piece that really, I really wanna challenge, is when Jewish communities, Jewish individuals sort of say, if there's even an inkling of anything that could possibly be interpreted as antisemitic from anyone from this movement or this space, then I will cut them off forever. That litmus test feels so clearly counterproductive. Because when I flip it and say, well, if a litmus test was used on me about racism or homophobia or transphobia, I mean, I think of the evolution that I personally have gone through around gender non-binary and trans-folks in the past, five years or so. And--- Yeah.- I mean, I'm so grateful for my non-binary colleagues who stuck with me when I was misgendering them, and continue to stick with me, like when we use litmus tests in that way, everybody loses.- Yeah, everyone loses. And to me, that's a part of like sort of the masters, tools to dismantle the master's house, right? And that is also why this is so personal to me. Is because when Jews in our community do this, it is so painful, I just, I think it's maybe what some, it gives me a sense of what some elder women feel, of like the amount, like how much I've given in this community. And to me, I'm still clear that there's far more that I've gained, but at times immense and explicit racism from teachers, from people who, especially in my youth, were supposed to be supporting my leadership and instead attacked me and targeted me explicitly, publicly humiliated members of my family. And to hear that you are going to... that, is like a very personal level to me, that I have spent at times hours crying during controversies around the Women's March, as the members of the Jewish community were leaving in droves, it felt on a certain level, like a personal betrayal. Like all the shit that this community has dished out, I've had to wade through, and I'm still here for you, and I still have your back. And even right now, as you're leaving, I'm still representing us. It feels like fairweather friendship. And the only reason why I don't think of it that way, is 'cause of that trauma lens.- Right.- Right?- That's right.- And so, and also to me, like, so then I just like, it makes me ask questions and I'm not from a place of meanness, but just from a place of clarity. like there's antisemitism in America. Are you going to leave America? There's antisemitism in the banking system. Are you going like, so what is it about? So I do not object to the statement, although it seems like obvious to me and also like it's single. So why the singling out of the progressive movement? What is it about that specifically that feels so optional? And for me as a person in general and also as a woman of color, and as someone who's deeply committed to justice, to me that is as obligatory if not more, than me not stepping away from aligning enough so that I can live in society with the monetary system. Or like, so that's just like some food for, like for questions, right? If that's something that comes up for people, I'm curious about it, I'm curious about that, right? Like what is that? And so the last thing I'll say here is that, I've also shared some practices and strategies here, that I do as someone who is a career, social justice, professional, and leader. And that isn't necessarily necessary for other folks to have to be in it at that level or strive to form relationships with leaders with whom we generally have a lot of respect for, and my two things at times that are really hurtful to us. So I think the less leadership focused version of that, is to remain engaged and to get clear about, if you are in fact committed. Which I think many people are, that they want to bring about more justice and wholeness and compassion to this world. And part of the challenge may be that you may need more supports in place. Do you have, can you recruit and or connect with people who you know you care about and who you trust? Who are also in this work and be in it together and do social change work together. And ideally in a way that's not to the exclusion of the broader movement but that helps to create a little bit of an inner circle or havruta, but a circle is even better of several people, right? Where, like essentially social change havurah in the context of progressive work, who not only can provide you with comfort and understanding and alignment around an affinity, identity or an affinity space where you share identity, but also hopefully some people in your group also have additional analysis that can help to ease some of your suffering, and through helping you develop your awareness and your analysis, such that certain things that were highly offensive before, it might help remove the blinders from your eyes a bit and start to expand your frame. So you have a larger context within which to understand what's playing out that might help minimize some of the pain. And it doesn't necessarily change it's importance or the fact that it needs to be addressed, but it might be put in a broader frame, so that you can holistically navigate because it's not a great look. Like, I think it's understandable from an oppression perspective but I think it's not a great look for Jews when Jews say that, 'cause a bunch of other people would look at them and be like, and what? There's no sexism, there's no racism, you think I'm in this because this is racism free?- Right, or--- It's a very, which again is another sign of trauma and collective trauma. It's a very self-centered perspective as opposed to being able to have a more or possess a more global multifaceted mindset that holds and considers multiple experiences outside of just your own.- The other thing about the position that "I can't engage because of this one comment or this one, whatever" is, it holds an entire group accountable for the actions of one person, which if and when that has done to Jews, we take it very personally, right?- Right.- I've said this before to you April. I don't know if I've said it on this show or not, but I can imagine someone from the Movement for Black Lives saying like, yeah, I don't know if I really, or not the Movement for Black Lives, make it, Catholic Charities, saying like, I'm not sure I really wanna work with Jews because clearly with Harvey Weinstein and Jeffrey Epstein, y'all have a sexual predation problem within your community. Which if we heard that, we would be up in arms and yet there are members of the Jewish community who makes similar statements regarding specific antisemitic statements or behavior from specific individuals in a group. And so I just wanna name that and I also wanna--- And then dismiss an entire movement.- Right.- As if like, in the inherent, and again, that might be partially just like a lack of knowledge, right? But in movements are inherently, fundamentally diverse. But keeping about a movement is that they strive for alignment, not uniformity but alignment around a key issue, but within a movement it's multiple parties coming together. At times who may not even have seemingly similar interests around an issue, but you discover that you do and you begin to mobilize and build momentum, but it's a given.- Right.- But there's all kinds of difference, and that we're focusing on some key things to advance. Yeah, you were about to say something.- I just was gonna add an additional strategy to the one that you just named about sort of building circles and sort of building the spaces.- Great, ready to queue it.- Something that I use, it's like, it's almost like a focus phrase and it's about compassion. And I think it works both for the others and for yourself, which is not to minimize whatever statement is, that you're reacting to, but I sort of I'm like,"Oof, that person has some learning to do." And when I react in that way,- Nice.- with that phrase, then I can also apply it to myself, right? So when I catch myself saying something, or if someone else calls me in, then I'm able to say, "oof, I've got learning to do," right? Like I have work to do. Which is not to say, like, I'm a terrible person or that that person is necessarily a terrible person. Maybe they are, I don't know. But the fact of an antisemitic statement within the broader context. When someone has unexamined oppressor material, like that just means that they internalized oppressor material, it doesn't mean that they can't work on it and dismantle it. So that sort of like, "oof, that person has some learning to do," helps me to kind of put enough space around it, that I can kind of figure out where, whether or not the danger from the trauma reaction is real and also like what next steps should be. So I just wanted to offer that.- What I also love about that statement is that it's not permanent.- Exactly, yes.- It holds that people are continually evolving. And the last piece that could arguably be it's whole own episode that I also wanna name here that we haven't yet named, which it's been a while since I've talked about this, but I often I name is at the outset but I think it was better to focus in and just honor what's being said first. But like here's a twist for the conclusion is also, it's really important that we be conscious and mindful about the media we consume, because this is leveraged as a wedge issue. Oftentimes I especially saw around certain things happening with the Women's March, as someone who was on the ground in New York city, who had personal relationships and partnerships with the leaders and various people involved, that there were times where it was very clear to me as someone who was on the ground, that what was that in the media at times where just explicit lies or mistruths or there's a specific case study that I like to share where there was a headline about a specific leader that I'm not going to get into right now,'cause I don't want it to get, be distracting for certain folks. And the headline said something about a belief this person has. And if you read the article itself, that person didn't say that thing. Like it said that essentially they don't like this entire group of people, and when you read the article, they were critiquing a right wing, like right wing people within a specific subset of people. They didn't say all those people. And I was someone who the headline said, who identified at that time as that identity, and that person was in deep and meaningful relationship with me and consistently had my back. So that's another thing to be mindful for is both what's in the media and to work on cultivating your own awareness and having self-awareness around your biases and why are you willing to easily believe with little or no evidence that actually backs up that accusation.- Right.- So that's also another thing that I would say is more like, probably not more than 30 or 40% of the time, but that's a lot. That like almost half the time, something that is being labeled as antisemitic, one, may not actually be antisemitic. Somebody might be making a legitimate claim around something that happened with a Jew. And if they didn't at all in any way mentioned they're Jewish, like, and that's not typically what happens. But there are things like that that happen where it's like, that is not antisemitism to have a critical view of the work of a person who happens to be Jewish. If that part doesn't, just to be mindful about that. But all of that being said, still in general, that is less of a, like that's means a starting point. Because to me at times that stops things. So, what that looks like for me, as I navigate this work as April Baskin, is when I hear of leaders or people who are not Jewish, who are accused of antisemitism, I go and I mindfully read the material. I also do this for people of color who are accused of certain crimes like sexual assault, as someone who's aware that there is a long and storied history in this country and past around black men being wrongfully accused.- Right.- And as someone who knows from firsthand experience, I'm also aware that there are legitimate claims. But so as I read anything, if and when I choose to read it and choose to have that take at my brain space, but if something is coming up a lot in different spaces I'm in, I am looking to assess, is this in fact antisemitism? Is this targeting Jews? Is this disproportionately or unfairly targeting the state of Israel in a disproportionate or unjust way? Cherie Brown has a list of criteria in this booklet she wrote that's available online. I can remember if we referenced it or not before,

"Anti-Semitism: 32:08

Why Is It Everyone's Concern". And she has a criteria, a list of criteria to determine if it is."Are Jews or Israel being singled out for blame?" That's one, two, "is the liberation movement Black Lives Matter movement, gay liberation, labor movement et cetera, being diverted from its mission by attacks on Jews or Israel?" So are accusations about antisemitism, interfering with the progress of the liberation movement, or three, "does the situation or the policy being proposed increase the isolation of Jews from other oppressed groups," right? So I often look for this and assess as I'm reading something, is that happening? And then from there, I also read it with a multicultural lens. So when incidents happened with the football player in Philly, or with Nick Cannon, especially if it's a Black person, I'm also looking to assess from that Black person's statements, if they are in fact specifically targeting Jews, which at times they're naming them. And if in fact it's more of a critique of white people and it's a matter of misinformation, which is not okay, but that's different than somebody who has it out for Jews versus someone who has--- A lot to learn.- Have a lot to learn, and more specifically, if it's more that, if I see that what they're actually critiquing is an issue, if they're trying to advocate about racism and it has some antisemitism marbled in, and there's someone who doesn't have a track record of doing this kind of thing, I think, ah, like I think they need some clarification, but I bet if someone explained this to them, they'd be like, "oh, yo, my bad. Like that, I was not trying to do that, it looks like I got some information from a problematic source," right? And that, so to me is then that, so this I'm like, okay, it's antisemitism, but it's not like capital A, Antisemitism, it's lowercase a, which still needs to be addressed, but that's different to me than someone who explicitly has it out for Jews. And so I remember a couple of years ago, again, for right now, I'm just think it's better not to name but there was a prominent civil rights leader who was accused of antisemitism. And I went through and carefully looked at the materials and I was like, unfortunately, yeah, this just seems like straight up, right? But there are many times where I read stuff and I'm like, I think this actually, this person is trying to find anti-Blackness and they need to clean up their strategy a little bit versus where I'm like, ooh, whoa, that's capital A Antisemitism. That is bad. That is explicitly targeting Jews, right? So all of that to say, so I try to also process my media, because at times when people have that conversation, I pull back and actually say, is it antisemitism? So it's to be conscious about what you're receiving because people know this is a trigger for our community as well as other groups who at times don't have Jewish best interest in mind,- Right.- they're leveraging the advantages they can get through interacting with us in various ways, I check to confirm, is that actually the case? Because sometimes it's not. So, all right, I think that's it for now. I can't remember if I decided to say at the top of this episode, but like I once developed a whole curriculum that I could squeeze into two hours that I honestly thought would be better spread out over multiple weeks. And then sort of some of the tensions around this died down but maybe at some point we'll potentially roll it out.'Cause there's like a lot more stuff here. So this episode was a little bit longer than our usual ones,'cause there's just a lot to unpack. So my hope, do you wanna say anything else before I wrap up with like a kavanah, Tracie?- No, I'd love to hear your kavanah.- So my hope is that as Jews, we can feel increasingly safe as we work to live our best lives and work for a world of wholeness, justice and compassion and not if, but when antisemitism shows up, we have supports in place, in our lives more generally. And also hopefully in that space where, and we've gotten enough support to feel like we have a range of options around how to navigate the situation. So my kavanah for you is that you feel safe and supported as you navigate these spaces. And that I get to see and work with and celebrate collective victories with more of my Jewish people in broader social justice movements, where we feel empowered to show up humbly and with our full brilliance and kindness present and ready to be leveraged for all it has to offer and contribute.- [Tracie] Friends, we wanted to give you a quick heads up, April and I will be taking some time off in the month of May, 2021. We will be re-releasing our favorite episodes of Jews Talk Racial Justice every Thursday in that month.- [April] Thanks for tuning in, our show's theme music was composed by Elliot Hammer. You can find this track and other beats on Instagram@elliothammer. If this episode resonated with you, please share it and subscribe. To join the conversation, visit jewstalkracialjustice.com, where you can send us a question or suggestion, access our show notes and learn more about our team. Take care until next time and stay humble and keep going.