Ep 29: The Sea Never Parted

In the first of two Passover-themed shows, April shares her epiphany that despite a resonance between the story of the Israelites leaving mitzrayim (Egypt, the narrow place) and the emancipation of enslaved Africans in the U.S., the two stories diverge in important and significant ways.

CONTENT WARNING: Discussions of slavery, enslavement, and violence against Black people and passing reference to sexual assault.

Find April and Tracie's full bios and submit topic suggestions for the show at www.JewsTalkRacialJustice.com

Learn more about Joyous Justice where April is the founding and fabulous (!) director and Tracie is a senior partner: https://joyousjustice.com/
Read more of Tracie's thoughts at bmoreincremental.com

Resources and notes:
The film about Tamar Mannaseh is They Ain't Ready for Me.

You can read documentation of enslavement in the U.S. into the 20th century in this article in VICE

Dig into Professor Joy DeGruy's thinking and research at her website.

Michele Alexander's groundbreaking work The New Jim Crow makes the case that slavery adapted to emancipation in Jim Crow and then mass incarceration.

Amy Cooper, a white woman, called the police on Christian Cooper (no relation), a Black man, when he asked her to leash her dog in Central Park in the summer of 2020. You can read about the encounter in the NY Times.

Learn more about artist Dori Midnight at her website.

Transcript

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- [Tracie] As we prepare for Passover 5781, we're thinking about what it would look like if the sea never parted and realizing we know exactly what it would look like.- [April] This is Jews Talk Racial Justice with April and Tracie.- [Tracie] A weekly show hosted by April Baskin and Tracie Guy-Decker.- [April] In a complex world, change takes courage.- [Tracie] Wholehearted relationships can keep us accountable.- Alrighty, Tracie, I am so excited. Woo! One of my very most favorite, arguably my favorite, but there's so many juicy Jewish holidays that it's hard to pick one, but for me, Pesach, Passover is one of the top contenders. What an epic holiday, right? It lasts for multiple days. It is steeped in ritual. It has sensory challenge and pleasure. It has intellectual stimulation. Because of all of the symbolism and, and rituals, there are so many places to add contemporary as well as retrospective l'dor vador, from generation to generation historical context. It's just steeped in peoplehood and spirituality and visions for liberation. How do you feel about Passover, Tracie?- I, I can't compete with that. I can't compete with that.- And as a black Jew, right, like, like the multiple layers for me as a Jewish person and as a person of African heritage and what the story means and that ties into what I'm excited for us to talk about today is how I've thought really deeply about this as someone who has ancestors whose ancestors endured and ultimately survived enough of, of slavery, of enslavement that I am here today. Right. So it's just, so much of me comes alive and feels held by this holiday. But like I was saying, okay, so you're not, you're not necessarily at my level with it, but you have your own sacred relationship with Pesach, and I would love to-- Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah.- Hear a little bit about it. Pesach being- Yeah, no.- the Hebrew word for Passover, to be clear.- Passover is, I mean, when I was growing up, and we were not particularly observant, like Passover was the one that we always did. We always had a Seder every year. And so it definitely, it, it resonates not just because the themes resonate but also because it is one of the ways, one of the moments I most fully know I'm Jewish. If that makes sense. I feel like a Jewish identity has not always been easy for me, but Passover has always been a, an important reminder and marker for me of my Jewishness. So there's, yeah, there's a lot. And in fact, as an adult, it was the first holiday that I sort of celebrated on my own in my own home. Before Shabbat, even. So, yeah, there's a lot, there's a lot there with Passover. I agree.- Oh, yay. I love it. I love it. And that's so meaningful and, and I think that a number of folks will resonate with various elements of what you just shared. I know I certainly did. Okay, Tracie, so are you okay if I provide a little bit of framing for us to dive into that I think you'll have a lot of insights to share?- Yeah, absolutely. Get us started, April.- Right, so here's my thing. That's been my thing for a few years now. I first had this thought a couple years into my vice presidency at the URJ, at the Union for Reform Judaism. One of many of the things I loved about working at the URJ, of working in a place that's so deeply Jewish and is responsible for helping an entire movement perpetuate and embody Judaism is that on a weekly basis because of the d'vrei Torah, the essentially the Torah talks or mini sermons, but sermons is too strong a word, but mini Torah talks that we would have during our executive team meetings and preparing, helping to support congregations and, and various Jewish communities in our movement for holidays. It was an opportunity for me to think and reflect even more deeply than I already had about all those things, right. To think about these, and, and I was leading the movement among other things around racial justice and, and and the broader Jewish social justice field around racial justice. So I was looking through those two lenses on a regular basis. And so during that moment in my life, I had this big epiphany that I, you know, was very original to me. And I also think there's nothing new under the sun. I was watching a movie earlier this year that was produced about Tamar Manasseh, an amazing Jewish black rabbi who also runs an organization in Chicago to address gun violence and other neighborhood and public health challenges, and she in the video shares a similar thought, which I, I love when there's alignment across different people, right. But this epiphany I had now probably about six years or so ago, as I was thinking about this is that, so here's the foreground of it, besides all that additional background, is that throughout my life, especially as a black Jew, but also just in general in the Jewish community, even in most, I think in most or many Seders people often sing the Negro spiritual, Let My People Go, right. That just inherently, in the context of the United States, there has been a connection made between the black struggle for liberation and Civil Rights and the Jewish narrative around achieving freedom from bondage in terms of the biblical narrative. And, and just to say a little bit more about that, that it is not only a connection that's been made within the Jewish community, but also in the black community and a reason why actually, that there were a number of people in the South, not a huge amount, but a significant segment of folks who were either Christians, black Christians, who still to this day have a heavy emphasis on the old Testament for that reason dating back to enslavement and in general enslaved black people or Africans in terms of being, having Christianity given or more often likely forced on them that they often gravitated to the Old Testament. And a number of black figures historically were often given, would, would, you know, like at times Harriet Tubman was referred to as the black Moses.- Right, right.- [April] Harriet Tubman is so amazing.- The Moses of the people.- Right. The Moses of her people. Right. And so, and so also within, and there were also a number of people, again, like, I don't know, maybe it's single digits percentage, but also there were various black folks who converted to Judaism or attempted to do so and may have experienced boundaries around racism. So this is not a new thing. You know, this is very common in our community. At times, there are often black-Jewish Seders in general in our community. And increasingly there's a critique, particularly most vocally from Jews of color, who resist that binary nature of black-Jewish because there are black Jews and people searching for better alternatives that more holistically present that. But so that often happens. And there's often correlations between freedom achieved in the exodus from Egypt and freedom achieved from the exodus of slavery in the United States. But this big epiphany, all this buildup, but this big epiphany I had a few years back was black people are still in Mizraim.- [Tracie] Yeah.- The sea didn't open for us. When the emancipation proclamation came out, what, first of all, it took, I think it was like two years for the news to make its way across the United States. And as I was sharing with you, Tracie, before the recording, that there's documentation that there were African-American enslaved, people who were still enslaved, well into the 1930s, well into the 20th century. Right. But, but so that not withstanding, there is a comparison made between freedom in these two contexts, and it's contested at times whether or not the biblical story is in fact, true. There are very smart Jews I know who think that it is, and that's very much a part of their identity. And there are a number of Jews who it may still be very much a part of their identity, and they see it as more of not necessarily a literal tale. Right. Either way, the narrative has a lot of meaning and is a core part of, of Jewish collective identity. So what I'm trying to say here is that I had this epiphany that these stories aren't as similar as people often make it out to be. That for the Jews in Egypt, the sea parted, and they were all able to escape. And as we recall in the story, as, as, once Pharaoh finally gave permission, as they were approaching, as they were fleeing, they changed their mind. Right. Which is what happened in the States too.- Right. The Egyptians changed their minds.- [April] Right. The oppressor changed their mind. Oppressors, right? And, and that was true in the States too, but that's a big difference in the story that I want to name is that mythically or in practical terms there was no equivalent of the sea opening and people being able to create, an African-heritage people being able to get distance and liberation and separation from their oppressors. In fact, at times, some of them tried to and tried to flee to parts of the country where there had, where there was racism but not necessarily slavery, and we learned from a variety of scholars that much of the time, they were turned away, they were, they were, they faced terror, racial violence, racial terrorism. And there were some states where as, as Dr., Professor Joy DeGruy teaches, where if you went to certain parts of the country, they let you be there, but if you stay there after six months, they'd beat you. And they'd beat you on six months, at six month increments until you left. Okay. There's lots that I could get into, and I'm starting to get into the weeds, but I want to just stick on this core principle that we are still in Mizraim, and it's, and that to me is a counter-cultural or a contradictory assertion to the fact that, Oh, Jews got free and black people got free. When we have voter suppression and the prison industrial complex, which essentially replaced slavery in a number of sense, as a number, in a number of ways as Michelle Alexander beautifully articulates in the New Jim Crow, we had, we also had Jim Crow, that there's all these different, and we're still living, and black people today in the United States are still living with the descendants of Egyptians as well as, and this applies to number of Jews, the other folks who have some things in common with the Egyptians, who go along, who comply or conform to oppressive Egyptian or white supremacist norms and patterns to survive in that society and also take on some of the roles of the oppressor. And we see that in actions like someone like Amy Cooper last summer, who for all we know may not be a direct descendant of someone who enslaved folks but still is following a racial code around having the right to put a black person's life in danger simply when she doesn't get what she wants or needs. Right. And so we see this playing out, this collective trauma and these collective patterns.- Just in case you aren't familiar, the word for Egypt in Hebrew is Mizraim, which also can mean narrow place. So when April talks about a narrow place or Mizraim, that's where that comes from.- [April] Yes, yes Absolutely. Thank you, Tracie. I'm, I'm, I'm ending up making this far more complex than I meant to, right, but, but we see these, that we see signs everywhere. The fact that unarmed people are killed, honestly like, is slightly different trappings, but it's not that different from the times of slavery that, that to this day right now, for the most part, law enforcement, in practical terms, or, you know, in practice can kill or murder an unarmed black person and rarely receives consequence for it. And it happens frequently, multiple times a week. Multiple times a week. And how is that that different than slave catchers or then slave masters or, you know, to use more contemporary modern language, kidnappers of the enslaved and, and, yeah, enslavers? So, so what do we do? So one, I just want, to me, I think it's really important in our work in general, as, as a number of folks know, I'm really big into, and I think Tracie is too, and our team at Joyous Justice, is into amplifying joy and happiness in the work. And to be part of what allows for us to do that sincerely and powerfully is being very rigorous about, as necessary to the point that it is necessary, to becoming aware of the darkness and being honest and not being in denial. Essentially, it's sort of like, I can practice, or I can be in good health if I'm willing to rigorously care for myself when there's, when it's not that I, when I focus on something if there is an infection, me dealing with that infection allows me to have healing and process that more rapidly and resume to a state of good health, right. Or even, or even be happy because I focus on what I need to, I've now provided an ointment, or I'm taking an antibiotic, and I've bandaged my wound and have cared for that as much as I can. And now I can place my focus somewhere else. Right. So right now I'm saying, let's take a moment as is done on Pesach with the custom, with the Jewish custom, of reading the Haggadah and of telling the story of enslavement and liberation from, from enslavement in Egypt. Right? And I think it's important to notice and to acknowledge in our Seders this year and in years moving forward until freedom is achieved for all people, and especially black people and people of color, that slavery didn't end in the United States. It just took on a different form, which therefore means that the story of the Jews in Egypt and the African-American story are not as aligned as we've often thought they were, as I did for most of my life. One group was able to get free, and one group is still not free. And I want to be clear here because when I say that mythically in the story the Jews were able to get free, that's one thing. And, and, and in large part in society, society today, thank God, are free, but that doesn't mean that we are free from oppression entirely. But the oppression is not a modern ongoing incarnation of enslavement. And it's important to notice that, that distinction. Right. And so then the next question for me, and I think for us, Tracie, is, unless there's additional insight that you want to add or clarification to anything that you might want to add to what I said since I'm riffing here, is what do we do? So now, so now what do we do? Now that we, okay, so we now acknowledge that African Americans, and also the entire country, honestly, but particularly African Americans and people of color and Native Americans are still in Mizraim, which also means our country, the United States, is still in Mizraim. If I'm being really, I really want to go for it, much of the world because of the ongoing lingering impact of colonialism is still in Mizraim with regard to racial injustice, racial, and socioeconomic. And those two are deeply intertwined. Often people separate them, and no, they are deeply embedded. They're deeply intertwined together, right. That there is socioeconomic and racial injustice and oppression and Mizraim, narrowness and profound oppression. So then do you want to add anything to that before we start to get into, so what do we, so what do we do with that? Or do you want to add any, reflect, I think I want to pause because you're so smart, Tracie, and so I'm curious if you have any reflections or pieces to add to what I've said or-- I, I, I guess I just want to make a little bit explicit because as we were talking before we started recording, what you're saying about the sea never parting started to really like sink in. And so I'm just going to share that a little bit the way I thought it through. Like I started to ask myself like, yeah, what would it have looked like for the Israelites if they had had to stay in Egypt after being freed, like, and had to live next door to the people who used to be their oppressors. And then I thought, I answered that-- [April] And deal with the fact of, like more specifically, that it's not just live next door, live next to the people, if they do get to, who came chasing after them to re enslave them. That they are in the society where there was an effort to grab them and bring them back.- Right. And even if they weren't like re enslaved in technical terms, and anyway, I answered my own question.- They partially were, and weren't, right. But realistically, yeah.- I answered my own question because we know, which is what you're, you are leaning on, which is that we already know what that looks like if they had to, if the, if the formerly enslaved had to remain in the society with their oppressors. We know what that looks like because it happened here. And that sort of, as that settled into my brain, that really helped make clearer for me exactly what it is that you're talking about when you, when you say the seas never parted for, for slaves in this country, for the the enslaved people.- The enslaved.- [Tracie] Yeah, the enslaved people. Thank you. Yes.- Yay. Modern analysis and tweaks to language.- Yes.- [April] As we, as we've learn more.- Let's make that clear, too. I just corrected myself and April corrected me that the, the, by using the word slaves to describe enslaved people that it makes it inherent to their identity as opposed to talking about what was being done to them. And so that's why the shift in language, for those of you who are unfamiliar with that preference, or preference is not strong enough a word, that correction to the way that we speak because language is powerful. And so we, we don't want to talk about, we want to talk about people. And so enslaved people is the way that we're foregrounding their humanity.- Thank you for spelling that out, Tracie. And, and also when you said that it reminded me of a different piece. I talked to you earlier before we recorded, started recording. It is another component of this too, is that not only did the sea not part for us, but, whether literally whether figuratively or literally, right, we weren't, we were not as a people given an option. Like what might that have looked like? So hypothetically, I'm just speaking in real time, I haven't prepped to this, right. It's like maybe there would have been an option from the US government, an apology. So first of all, ideally like a profound apology, reparations and a choice of is their territories you would like to have as a sovereign people in our country? Or would you like to integrate into this existing society? Or would you like a free ride and reparations and an opportunity to return back to Africa? And what that might look like logistically, especially then, you know, like if there was some plan they worked out with a couple nations. We apologize for the fact that you didn't, no longer know where you are from. And here in collaboration with blackness is like, this is a total, but I like doing this work because it's helpful to actually engage in radical imagination and think about new possibilities. You know, like I, I'm, so I don't know what that, that would have, like those are some options of what that, you know, where maybe part of the country, ideally, which would be complicated to do that too because all of the land in the United States is stolen from native peoples.- [Tracie] Right.- So that also wouldn't quite work. Like all this conversation is being had in the context of native genocide. So, but all of that, so like I played that out. And then, so I ideally, like, I love this idea. It's just so rich, and so we'll probably at some point cover it again on Jews Talk Racial Justice, but the sea parted, and the Jews were able to enter, and then the sea closed and created a barrier from the oppressors being able to still grab them and take them back. So there was protection. So the people were not only set free, but then they were guided by a designated leader, a divinely designated leader. And as the oppressors came for them, there was protection and the sea, there was access given to a new future and a new potential homeland. They were able to enter the sea and sea closed to prevent, so there was protection. And then there was, what is it? Some, there was 40 years. Well, how many generations is that? Two, two and a half, something? There were multiple generations or a couple generations of time of wandering in the desert. And some of the analysis that the rabbis contemporary historically and of old, rabbis of old and contemporary rabbinic leaders discuss around those 40 years being incredibly valuable and critical in terms of healing for the Jewish people. That when people goes through something as traumatic as violent enslavement, and I don't know if the biblical slavery was as bad as, as the horrific slavery that happened in the United States, that a lot of people don't know the depravity. I often have a theory that in part dynamics and patterns around serial killers, to me seems to be in some ways tied to some of the grotesque things that were normative in the context of United States chattel slavery.- Yes. And yes, it was horror, horrifying and there's no such thing as good slavery. There's so-- Right. Well, but, but there are, but I want to say, but there are differences, right? Like, just to me, like, it actually is worth naming. Like, it's worth me noticing, a trigger warning, that in ways that I, my body has been violated, it could have been worse. And actually those details do matter. People can be treated badly to the point of death, right. It's all trauma and it's all pain, but there are, and that, and it's not about competition, but it's about awareness and the treatment or the things that are needed for that. Right. So servitude is awful and dehumanizing, but that is not the same as-- I, I think that that's, I think that that is absolutely fair and worth noting. And I just-- I think, well, I think your point is right. I think, I think what you're saying is correct. I just wanted to-- I just feel like there are folks, especially in this country, who want to try and claim like, among the Jewish community, I've heard, like there were some Jewish slave owners, and there's this desire to be like, yeah but they were the good kind of slave owners. There's no such thing as the good kind of slave owner. There's no such thing as a good kind of slavery. That's, that's really the point that I was making, and yes, the level and the depth of the trauma and violence is not all the same, but that doesn't mean there's any that's good.- Correct. Yes. Yes. Totally agree. And for me in this work, like at times, I don't like when people equivocate pain. It all is important, and it all deserves care, but as someone who's been intimate with different things, I feel viscerally and intimate with some of it, and also seen where things, how much worse things could have been. I am crystal clear having navigated some significant trauma that there are people who go through far worse, and that matters. It matters. And in certain times it doesn't, but in certain contexts it matters. And I think that they deserve support and healing that is in alignment with the degree of, of what they sustained and endured or didn't endure for their predecessors and descendants, for their descendants. So, so all of this to say, Oh, y'all were getting deep in this episode. Hope you're staying in with us. So the Israelites, the Jews had 40 years to wander, which is both difficult but it also was a time for immense healing and release of collective trauma and also having to face themselves and face the oppressor within of the different things. Of course, that, of course, this is human nature to, to not be immune to profound and regular daily, literally, beatings and indoctrination of, of oppressive messages about yourself and your people. And needing 40 years of wandering through the desert, which I think is important, right, in the wilderness of barrenness, that is almost similar to meditation. 40 years of walking meditation, of not having anything to distract you from the ugliness that, that, that was internalized from just breathing, from just being, from just what your eyes saw. Right. And like, to me, there's all kinds of beautiful meaning here that could be like a poem or (inaudible) around the mirages and things that a desert, of being in a desert, and needing to fight for your survival, of what that would elicit and the, and the demons and the releasing of, I mean, proverbial demons, not literal demons, but like the demons that would come out of the message that you heard about yourself and other people. All of that time to do all of that healing work, and I want that healing work for any people who has endured extensive, profound trauma. I want that healing opportunity for individuals who have experienced trauma, right. And that opportunity was not available to African heritage folks who were formerly enslaved or who are, who were the descendants of slaves, of enslaved people. Excuse me.- I'd like to actually just quickly name for our listeners who, you know, maybe like me, you've heard before this idea that the generation that left Egypt was not ready for the Promised Land. I mean, that's sort of the way that I perceive the teaching is that, that they, they had to, I mean, I've even heard it described as like, they all had to die off before the people could be ready to, to actually inhabit the land. And I've internalized that as that they were somehow undeserving of the Promised Land, which is really gross. I do not like that. And the way that April has framed it as that they required healing, that they required healing from their collective trauma, it has opened up for me something that I didn't even realize I needed. So I just want to name that for others who maybe have internalized the idea that that first generation who were freed were somehow undeserving of the Promised Land. That's not, that's not helping us. But the idea that they required healing, that feels really, I feel held by that idea in a way that opens up, that opens up empathy for others who require healing. So thank you.- [April It takes away the victim. Yeah. You're so welcome. It takes away the victim blaming. Right. And so here's, what's coming up for me, Tracie. I love what you just said. And in your last insight and remark, about that key reframe around how the story is told and interpreted about the wandering and this 40 year Exodus and journeying to the Promised Land. I want to invite, I want to just give people an invitation. I think, I think we should wrap up this episode soon and make this a two-part Passover episode. In our next episode, we have a whole peace plan that is deeply Passover related around, what do we do with this? Like, if we are in Mizraim, what action steps do we take? And I think that this is a big enough revelation and insight for a number of people, whether it is brand new for you or you like me have also thought of this independently or heard it from someone else who also thought of it, I love that piece around our collective alignment of some of those ties to collective consciousness, to invite you, to use Tracie's words just a moment ago, to open up and just notice that, and that as you're navigating preparation for Passover, wherever you are in the process of Passover, if you're gearing up for the first Seder, or you're in the midst of eating matzah or not eating matzah if that's not your tradition and just feeling the Passover vibes, if that's your flavor of Jewish observance, that you, I invite you to consider this to open up and to think about that shift in the narrative. That in the biblical story, the Jews were freed, and it's not the same story as what's happening in America. Black people are still, black people and people of color, indigenous people, Asian heritage people, LatinX and Hispanic people are still working for liberation in the United States. Also, I might also mention, if it's worth mentioning, Asian heritage also including West Asia of people who are called at times middle East, but as Baba Yaga or Dori Midnight says, her persona is Baba Yaga, middle of what? East of what? Like, what is, what is this dominant stuff? Right. To do a little mini lesson as Tracie did earlier. So a more appropriate phrasing or description of what is commonly called the Middle East is to refer to it as West Asia. So if you, also people of West Asian heritage, also navigate a lot of racial oppression. So what does it mean? It's just to sit with that reality. We invite you to visit jewstalkracialjustice.com and leave us a comment or thought if there are reflections you'd like to share, and we'd love to hear them and incorporate it into a future episode. Is there anything else that you want to add, Tracie?- Yeah. I just actually want to let folks know, in case you don't ,'cause we haven't made a big deal about it, that we actually are publishing reflection questions for all of our episodes. There might be a, a little bit of a lag, but eventually they will get up there. So at joyousjustice.com on the blog, there are reflection questions for every episode. So if you want to dig even deeper in your own thinking, please do check those out.- [April] Or bring it to your students or board or a discussion group, or you want to create a discussion group. And we have someone who's done that. I don't, can't remember if we gave him a shout out yet, but that's an option that you have.- Yeah. So yeah, that's all. I just wanted to make sure that we said that because I think that we were pretty, we were pretty low key about it. And I think you, please go check it out folks. I think you're really gonna be pleasantly surprised with, with all that we've collected there.- Yeah. That's pretty great. And so basically what I want to just give folks is a heads up. So what we're saying over this two part process is that we're engaging in a bit of compost where we're taking some of the drek and stuff and tough stuff, which is this we are still in Mizraim piece, and I want to invite you to think about that and be open to that idea and let that, like bounce off of different parts of your being. And in our next session, we're going to focus on what to do with that, what action you can take, even some joyous elements to weave into. But the first part of of that is being real and honest with ourselves and in our communities and in our observance and in our collective story of self as it relates to other communities, of what's similar and what's not similar. So my apologies to anyone who might've been looking for a quintessentially, joyously just upbeat Jews Talk Racial Justice episode for Passover. The invitation for deep introspection notwithstanding, I want to wish you a meaningful and joyous Passover. Much love, chag sameach, happy Passover, and may this Passover and the work we're doing collectively, at the Seder table and beyond, consistently move us toward more joy and greater liberation for all of us.- Amen.- [April] Thanks for tuning in. Our show's theme music was composed by Elliot Hammer. You can find this track and other beats on Instagram at Elliot Hammer. If this episode resonated with you, please share it and subscribe. To join the conversation, visit jewstalkracialjustice.com, where you can send us a question or suggestion, access our show notes and learn more about our team. Take care until next time and stay humble and keep going.