Ep 12: Jews Talk Thanksgiving, Part I

For Thanksgiving, April and Tracie talk a little about the holiday: the role it's played in Jewish American identity, those who work to make the day special for others, and the joys and pitfalls of getting together with extended family. (Stay tuned next week for more about the racial justice implications of a holiday that celebrates the relationship between European settlers and Native Americans without acknowledging the systemic violence and oppression that characterized much of that relationship.)

Content Warning: In this episode we talk in general terms about emotional and psychological abuse.

Find April and Tracie's full bios and submit topic suggestions for the show at www.JewsTalkRacialJustice.com

Learn more about April’s work at Joyous Justice: https://joyousjustice.com/
Learn about Tracie at TracieGuyDecker.com and read more of her thoughts at bmoreincremental.com

Resources mentioned:
Tamar Manesseh and the MASK project in Chicago
Barry Levinson's 1990 film Avalon  (reviewed by Roger Ebert)

Transcript

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- It's funny, just the past couple days, my daughter said,"Wait, non-Jewish people celebrate Thanksgiving?"(both laughing) This is our first of two Thanksgiving episodes of Jews Talk Racial Justice. This is Jews Talk Racial Justice, with April and Tracie.- [Tracie] A weekly show hosted by April Baskin and Tracie Guy-Decker.- [April] In a complex world, change takes courage.- [Tracie] Whole-hearted relationships can keep us accountable. So April, when this episode, that we're recording right now airs, it will be Thanksgiving Day.- It will be Thanksgiving Day.- Which is a holiday that is very complicated, actually, much more complicated I think, than we were taught to believe, when we were doing Thanksgiving Day pageants as elementary school kids.- And it's complicated on multiple levels. It's complicated in both its history and implications, and there are complicated dynamics for folks around a family who aren't often together, coming together, and needing to reconcile different perspectives. And the food is delicious.- (chuckles) It's true, it's true.- That's one part of it that is not as complicated, and even for meat eaters or a vegan, just the themes, like the different fall foods, I have, as we'll get into in a future episode, I have many complicated feelings about the holiday, but the food is delicious.- It's true, I'm a big fan of pumpkin pie, just in general. I really like pumpkin pie.- I like it all to be honest. The, what is it called, the the cranberry sauce on everything, you know, oh my goodness.- Almost like a condiment, and it's funny how people get nostalgia, plays into that too, like whether or not you're one of the jellied ones, who likes it out of the can, or the one that you actually make. So, it has the fruit in it. I definitely, I grew up on that can, and I still kinda like that slice of cranberry sauce.- I have both elements in my family.- Yeah, me too.- I got the canned family, and the fresh with orange rind shreds.- (laughs) Yeah, delicious, it's delicious. Yeah, and as you named, it's an opportunity for family who don't always get together, to get together, though this year, that also is complicated, because of a little thing called a global pandemic.- And like even more, right? I know percentage wise, demographically, it hasn't affected the Jewish community as much directly. That's not so true for my, and our black community, and communities of color, but specifically the black community. And there's also, which we didn't talk in prepping for this, the fact that for some families, including mine, some of our elders, or young folks aren't here anymore.- Aren't with us anymore, yeah. yeah.- Both for other reasons, and explicitly because of this enormous thing, right, of a global pandemic. So there's just a lot happening, and I think there are all kinds of situations within which folks will be listening. You know, will be entering this. One of the folks I have in mind, that I'm specifically holding up, and to be clear, I am not exactly going to be so much this person, which is maybe why I have even more empathy for this person, the person who is, in spite of all of these things, is working to make this day special for people they love, or maybe even people they don't know, who are in their community. I know Tamar Manasseh out in Chicago who runs MASK. I see she's been in this huge effort with her partners, with other community leaders, to make sure families have, while I have personally my own very strong feelings, and perceptions, I also want to hold in my heart, specifically, the people who also may have that and are still like for any number of reasons, I think, I'd love to hear your thoughts, your thoughts about the Jewish community's ties to this holiday, and the reasons why this holiday is important, right. And I do want to speak to folks who do have this day off, and however they may feel about the complexity of the holiday, also are taking it upon themselves to make this day special for people, and putting in work. So, I'd love to do an episode that can both speak to everyone, and is thoughtful about people, who in spite of everything, are still reaching for connection and love on this day. and I'll save my strident comments for our next episode. You know, the one thing I think I'll say before we dive in with this specific episode, more focused on being, or not being together with family, and how do we confront and navigate differences of perspective with people. Yeah, so I'm hoping this can be more of a supportive, maybe feel good or comforting episode, and we can save the hard hitting episode for next time. This holiday specifically, is one of the trickiest things for me, as a social justice, anti-oppression and liberation leader. Most things I feel like I can navigate the both / and really seamlessly, and this one is tougher for reasons we'll get into in the next episode, but there's a lot of nuance, there's a lot of nuance, and a lot of important variables.- Yeah, it's definitely complicated, and on so many layers. I mean, anytime, frankly, in my opinion, anytime you get a lot of extended family together, (laughs) it gets complicated.- Oh that, you know.- And just sort of the nature of extended family. Then there are added layers for this this holiday, in particular.- So this show is called"Jews Talk Racial Justice." So I'd love to hear from you Tracie, some of your perspective about what is, if anything, particularly Jewish, or relevant within Jewish identity, American Jewish identity and culture, where Thanksgiving sits, or has sat in the context of collective identity, noting that there's actually a diversity, but if we're specifically say, looking at the Ashkenazi American Jewish American experience.- Yeah, thank you for that invitation. I have this strong sense that Thanksgiving was one of the ways that my Ashkenazi ancestors, and I suspect many, signaled their Americanness. So it was, it's been, talk about both and, for American Jewish immigrants, immigrants to America, who are Jewish, trying to hold both American and Jewish at the same time, in a country that though technically, is not a Christian country, culturally really is, and so finding the space for both of those things. And I think Thanksgiving, it was an opportunity for these immigrants to really signal their complete embrace of their new country, or even first and second generation folks, whose parents maybe where the immigrants, or grandparents were the immigrants, it's still like this way of signaling. No, I am 100% American, and also 100% Jewish, because here I am at my Thanksgiving table, and it was a really, really big deal. I have echos every time I think about Jews and Thanksgiving I have echoes of Barry Levinson's movie, "Avalon," where the famous scene, where the they cut the Turkey without the one uncle whose name I totally don't remember. I'm sure our fans can remind me of his name, but I hear his sort of Yiddish accent, like, "You cut the toy-key without me."- Oh my gosh, Tracie, this must be where my dad got it from. Every year, he'd just talk about cutting the toy-key. It's this whole, you can't cut that, maybe he's, and I've never actually seen that movie, and I'm gonna say,"Oh, he's about to cut the toy-key. We're all here to see him cut the toy-key." It's like every year, and my dad had these different things, that like he's clearly at times referencing something.- But you don't know what he's talking about.- I don't know what it is.- What he's referencing.- Yeah, we were driving, he never played the song when we were little, but he would just be driving, and be like, "I got my mind on my money. and my money on my mind." And it wasn't till I heard like Snoop, I was like, "That's where that." (laughing)- That's funny, Barry Levinson and Snoop Dog, all together, in April's dad.- Yeah, he's a New Jersey black man, who grew up around a lot of Jews, and has Jewish extended family. It's all in the mix.- That makes sense. So Levinson is, particularly for me, as a Baltimore American Jew, Barry Levinson is another Baltimorean, and Avalon is about, I mean, it's about a family, but it takes place in Baltimore. and Baltimore is almost a character, in his--- Do you remember when this movie came out?- It's from the '80s.- I'm curious It's not new, yeah, I don't have the exact year.- I wasn't sure if it was like a '70s thing.- No, I think it was, I think it was a mid-80s movie, I believe, and so the movie tells the story of sort of three generations. It starts with the immigrant coming to Baltimore, and seeing all the lights, and then goes through the family, which is sort of the, it tells the story that has become held up as *the* American story. Sort of the immigrants coming like maybe during or just before the war and then the increasing alienation and sort of separation of the family over the generations. It's a great movie, in that there's a pivotal scene, where there's a falling out between two brothers, because Thanksgiving at the one brother's house. They cut the turkey without(chuckles) the other brother, and so it becomes a falling out between the two brothers, because they cut the turkey without him. And he says it in this, the way your dad said it every year.- The toy-key, yeah.- So anyway, I think Levinson though, the reason that that was such a pivotal scene is because he's pointing to the same thing that I'm pointing to, which is that Thanksgiving became a way for American Jews to sort of prove to themselves and to fellow Americans of their American-ness, and so it became a thing that was patriotic. The holiday became a way of showing patriotism while doing things that felt explicitly Jewish.- That read Jewish.- They do read Jewish, right.- You cook a lot of food, you cook a lot of comfort food. Thanksgiving food is pretty similar to Eastern European food. It's heavy and like root, and bread and carb based.- Yeah, for sure, for sure yeah.- Yeah, my mom, the whole Jewish side. Both sides of my family appreciate it. I think the difference is that like, I could be mistaken, but I feel like you're right. There is something that is special about the holiday, and collective memory of various folks. I mean, even in my extended family, even my Black and Native American, everyone, even with the complications aside, I think that there's a real anchor around connection, and giving, and sharing, and love.- Gratitude.- Gratitude and abundance, the abundance of love and sharing.- Cornucopia.- Yeah, yeah. I have a hot take about some of the dynamics. I have an insight, which is that.- Let me hear it.- Yeah, but in terms of some of the strife that comes up, seemingly inevitably, between different members of the family, I just had an insight. There are different things you can do with it, that part of the reason why, and this ties in some of my own learning that I'm doing right now for myself, as I work to deepen my own mindfulness, and living into the values I truly hold up. Part of what makes Thanksgiving so explosive at times, not for everyone, but for certain folks, is because we're having to confront what we avoid all year, right, and so this isn't an insight that will necessarily help in the moment, but for me it's sort of like an aha around, if there's a way, I'm just noticing that. I think there are different ways of taking that, and I know from from personal experience, and from narratives, and perspectives of friends, that at times, with family... I think at times particularly because of interlocking trauma or pain, I think that's what especially makes it hard, is that it's not, what's the word I'm looking for? Like, it's not light, like, all the stuff... Things that we would let somebody, so there's part of what's happening externally, but it's also our stuff, and that people know where our buttons are, and that people say things. It's like somebody could say something in that context, that if somebody said, even to us in a different context, it wouldn't push that button. But because it's that person, in that history that's unresolved, it sets off these things. So, I want to, I want to give a shout out, and much love and acceptance, to a number of the folks who may or may not be missing family, and are actually celebrating this year. That because of the pandemic, they don't have to experience certain painful dynamics. And, you know, there's all kinds of things that are going on here. Some of it's really straight forward, and just need some good old conflict resolution. This is about intergenerational trauma and abuse, and is really complicated. But it is to me worth noticing that in some ways, I just want to note, and I don't have a, or maybe I do, but I feel like there's a humility factor, but is noticing, is just awareness around the fact that there are certain things that we numb, or ignore, and that at times, like at key family gatherings, give us an opportunity to notice these things, and I think what's hard. I think there's like a couple dynamics at play, where it's like, how do we get through this? How do we navigate this as best as possible? And then too, there's another part around, because some of these things we just want to let go of, and never deal with again, and some of these things, we may want to let go of, but ultimately, if that person were to die or pass, were to die, we'd regret that we didn't resolve that. We might realize that that, that could have been resolved, right, and so each person needs to delineate where very clear boundaries need to be set, and where it's workable. I think with regard to race and racism, my hope would be that it's workable, and with folks for whom, and there are many, like that is impossible, my uncle so and so, my aunt, my father is just, my grandpa, my brother, my sister. I think that I want to invite people to consider that, that's a sacred task, that old friend to visit, family friend who visits, who's a great, whatever their profession is, and has these most asinine views. I think it's helpful to find a middle ground, where we don't need to solve it today, that's largely them, but is there a way over time, where we can do the work with that loved one, or that person who's proximate to people we love or that person who we don't love, but who we are in relationship with for various reasons, and what I invite some folks to consider, if you haven't already, that I think there are a lot of articles out there, from psychologists and therapists, and various thoughtful thought leaders that can talk about navigating some of these dynamics in the moment, and I think I would just make a plug for, some of the stuff is also long-term, and it's an opportunity to show, it's an opportunity for us to see where are the places where we like, I love it. Someone said, I forget who it was, it was like a, I don't know if it was Rumi, it was someone really profound. Maybe it was a misquoting that I saw on social media,'cause it was said in modern language, but it was like, "Someone is a master, until they go home to their family." And I remembered when I experienced that a few years ago, where I really felt on top of the world, and I was mindful, and I'd done all of this healing work, and as soon as I entered the orbit of my family, it was like, I went from zero to 60 internally, and it was just like,"Whoa, what is that?" And it just brings up healings that need to happen. I just think healing is so important, and it's so tricky, and I'm mostly talking to myself here, and I've been thinking and reflecting on this a lot, and doing my own personal work around this, that patient persistence is important. That just because we don't have the solution yet, doesn't mean that we can't keep searching for the right teacher, for the right approach, to continue tilling our own soil, as well as practicing loving compassion for those in our lives,'cause we're all we've got. I think that's a part of it, like we both live in an abundant world, and as we're seeing through this election cycle, which was another thing we forgot to name. So for those folks who either are getting together virtually, or in-person, because depending upon where you are in the country, in the world, that's feasible, that there also was this really painful thing that just happened.- It's still happening, it's still happening.- Where there's one side that lost, and one side that won, and the side that won, a lot of folks are both happy about the victory, and it's also a very complicated victory, that surfaced a lot of areas we need to work. I'm curious to hear, I've been talking a lot. I'm wondering if you have anything else to say? Tracie, you usually have key insights.- Thanks, I think that what's coming up for me, as you're talking, is kind of where you landed, which is that it's a lot about the internal work for oneself. Like I think about members of my own family, where patient persistence, yes, and there are some people who just aren't ready, and may never be ready for whatever the healing is that needs to happen, and I think each person has to kind of navigate that, to decide what they're willing to do. I've heard you April say before, that regarding trainings, there are some groups for whom you get to sort of see where they are, and you're like, you know what, I'm not the right trainer for this group, because I can't go there. I don't want to do that to myself, and so I'm gonna connect them with someone else, which I think is an important model.- For boundary setting.- For all of this, yeah, about boundary setting, because I think you're right that sometimes we do write people off too soon, because we're caught in the urgency cycle, and the urgency lie, if things can't get done like that, they can't get done, and so we do need to push, we need to push back against that, that false urgency. But I think there are also, there are cases, where no amount of patient persistence, I can think of at least one person in my family tree, where no amount of patient persistence will work, until that person does some work. No amount of patient persistence from me.- That's also, I want to be really clear here for some folks, whether it's in your direct intimate partner, or in your extended family, and there are also members of the family for whom it's not safe. And I think like, to me, there's a really key distinction, because for some, whether they are psychosis, or whatever state of mind they're in, or their behavior is just extremely abusive, and there is a distinction between. I think I'm specifically naming, that I've seen a lot of posts on social media over the last couple years, where I see people giving up on their friends and family, because they have a difference of opinion, and that is not enough reason. That being said, it is important to be clear about where your line is, and I think what I'm saying is, without it going into a realm where really ideally, it's at a point where professionals need to get involved, and I think at times people say that when it's nowhere near there, but for those who are mindful, and for whom this is hopefully helpful, and supportive in some way. So I just want to be clear, there's all kinds of things that show up in family, and I'm fortunate that in my own life. that those who were most abusive, we are no longer in communication. So that's not something I need to face. I'm more talking, so I want don't anything we've said in this episode to confuse folks around us, pushing you back toward people, who are both psychologically, mentally, physically, spiritually abusive, but what I'll say is, there's still a little bit of ground there for me. There's someone in my life who I really love, a lot, and there's an abusive dynamic at play, and so I've been in a real holding pattern with this person, because I feel like I can't, and I don't think that's fully true, but I haven't yet figured out how to be with that person, without it reminding me of old abusive dynamics, and this person is really important to me. I do believe on some level, I gotta figure it out. So that kind of brings us full circle, where it's not at a point, it's not what's the word? It's not a lost cause. I feel like there needs to be intermediaries involved in the process to help us reach resolution, and I still reach for that. Even though I'm keeping distance with that person, I'm still hopeful, because they matter, and I love them, and so I feel like we've given sort of a spectrum of, and there's a certain point, and at times it's different for different people, depending upon, like I'm aware with this specific person I'm talking about. There are other people for whom interacting with this person would be fine, because they don't have old patterns around that, and so they might be like,"Oh, this isn't so savory," but I'm not... I'm just gonna let it roll off my back." Whereas, it has this effect on me, and so I both try to continue to do work around my own healing, and also seek out support to help me figure it out. So I just, I think I want to offer love to all of us, and specifically those of us who have people who we do want to be in a relationship, and it's not easy. I really invite you to be present with yourself this holiday, whether you're with people, or you're by yourself, and recognize your inherent divinity, your inherent value, that if you find the practice of gratitude meaningful on this day, that you extend it to yourself.- That's really hard. It can be really hard for some of us to do that, and I think I just want to highlight that, yes, I reiterate the invitation, gratitude for oneself, even though it can be hard.- Yeah, and then all of this takes time, so to be as present as we can, and also do things that bring us comfort, if and when discomfort is arising, or things are happening, that bring us into our panic zone, that we can find ways. One of my strategies that I use at times, when I'm with family, is politely stepping away to go to the restroom, and do 10 mindful breaths, really just inhaling, holding it, noticing the suffering that I'm feeling, and exhaling, and taking my time and being like, yep, this is about the time that it would take to go to the bathroom, nobody's gonna notice. And if I really do it, and if I check in with myself, it's almost like I often don't cry but it's almost like I'm releasing something, and if I do it all the way to 10, which is a few minutes to do it slowly, it gives me a reset, and I'm able to reenter the space. So whether it's that, or going off video, or doing different things that give us a little bit of a buffer, I think a lot of these things, like these dynamics, took years often to cement, or to develop, and they're likely gonna take years to untangle, and so it's like, how can we care for ourselves, and savor what is good? Because of my orientation with the holiday, I think because it's important to some of my family members, I both plan to reach out to them, and Assane and I, Assane, my partner was so sweet. He was like, "Well, we'll do the holiday." And I was like, "Actually no, for me, I'd rather not." But at the risk of sounding cheesy, I want to really sincerely say that, please know that you're loved, and that this journey is ongoing. I strive in this work to not punt everything into the future, and also recognize that I'm not gonna solve everything right now. So to just center in what I love and appreciate in that moment, even if it's just the wallpaper, and the cranberry sauce, I know that I'm God willing, gonna live for another day with more insight, and more opportunities. Anything else to add Tracie? (chuckles) Do you want to say the holiday greeting?- Gosh, it's a hard one. I mean, I guess I just wish everyone as much peace, and love, and gratitude, as you can have on this American Thanksgiving Day.- Yeah, and I also wish you moments of mindfulness, that can have the elements that Tracie talked about, and also just loving awareness about what we're noticing show up, as we're alone, or with family, or anywhere in between.[ April ] Thanks for tuning in. Our show's theme music was composed by Elliot Hammer. You can find this track, and other beats on Instagram @ElliotHammer. If this episode resonated with you, please Share it, and Subscribe. To join the conversation, visit jewstalkracialjustice.com, where you can send us a question, or suggestion, access our show notes, and learn more about our team. Take care until next time, and stay humble, and keep going.