Ep 6: White Fragility, DARVO, and Accepting Feedback

April and Tracie discuss Robin DiAngelo's book, White Fragility. They unpack some of the courage and vulnerability it takes to both give and receive feedback around racism, and imagine a world in which it is safe to do both.

Find April and Tracie's full bios and submit topic suggestions for the show at JewsTalkRacialJustice.com

Learn more about April’s work at joyousjustice.com
Learn about Tracie at TracieGuyDecker.com and read more of her thoughts at bmoreincremental.com.

Resources mentioned in the show:
White Fragility by Robin DiAngelo
DARVO as a pattern of gaslighting in response to allegations of abuse was originally introduced by Jennifer J. Freyd, Ph.D.
Brené Brown's podcast, Unlocking Us explores the importance of vulnerability.

Transcript

- [April Baskin] We're not there yet, but this moment I think is moving us is moving more people closer to that. This is Jews Talk Racial Justice with April and Tracie.

- [Tracie Guy-Decker] A weekly show hosted by April Baskin and Tracie Guy-Decker.

- [April Baskin] In a complex world change takes courage.

- [Tracie Guy-Decker] Wholehearted relationships can keep us accountable.

- [April Baskin] Hi Tracie.

- How's it going? All right?

- Okay. Yeah, yeah. Life is full right now.

- Yeah. I just finished reading White Fragility, Robin DiAngelo this past week. I had read DiAngelo's work before in like smaller formats articles and things, and I've heard her speak, but this is the first time I've actually, I hadn't read the book until now. And there were a couple of things that really struck me that I like I wanted to share with you and get your take on it. So the first thing the first time. Yeah, of course.

- Sorry to inter- And that's interesting because that's about, I am where you were before you read the book. So I think I literally have the audio book queued up, but I also have 72 other titles to my audio.

- So you haven't read it yet?

- Yeah, I haven't read it yet, but I refer to it. I actually recommend it to people. It's actually helpful to hear what you're thinking about. And it's more encouragement for me to read it and I read her articles and I share videos that she's done. So I'm excited to hear some of your thoughts and it will hopefully encourage me even further to actually read it.

- Well, I'll say it's an easy read. I mean, it's actually in some ways shorter than I expected. Like there's a lot of resources at the back, so that it's a thin volume and it's actually even thinner in terms of the actual content and each chapter is, you know, quick and digestible. The first thing that struck me as I was reading and she's describing, she's really trying to, or she goes through and categorizes and catalogs what happens when someone's fragility is triggered. So basically for our listeners and viewers, this is the idea that there is a predictable set of behaviors that when white people are confronted by racism, especially their own expressions of racism, there's a predictable pattern of behaviors that acts to reinforce white supremacy. And though DiAngelo does not suggest that anyone is doing this sort of self consciously. I think that's an important point but

- Like on purpose?

- They're not saying like I'm going to reinforce white supremacy by the way they're just reacting in what is natural. But it's the way that we people with white skin have been taught to react. We've been taught to expect and feel entitled to comfort and, you know, just entitled to like not be made uncomfortable. And so when we are made uncomfortable, we react in predictable ways. And so one of the first things that occurred to me is she doesn't use this, but I have a family member by marriage who is narcissistic and really an emotional abuser. I was a kid when I was mainly being emotionally abused and I didn't call it that. I didn't recognize that until this person was more or less out of my life. But then I did a lot of reading about, especially about narcissistic abuse. And there's an acronym that's used when talking about abusers DARVO are you familiar with this?

- I have. I don't remember all of the words in the acronym, but I've heard of that.

- It stands for deny, attack, reverse victim and oppressor DARVO. And you see it in often in sexual abuse when it's accused or anything. I mean, you can see it in politics. I didn't do that.

- I have seen it in movement spaces.

- And it happens in a lot of spaces, but this is sort of typical abuser reaction. "I didn't do that. How dare you say that? You're the one that's actually hurting me." And so DiAngelo doesn't call out this acronym DARVO but that's clearly one of the patterns that comes out with white fragility, you know, like how you're saying this.

- I feel that.

- "This is hurtful. How dare you? You're the one that's racist because you're bringing up race." So that really struck me that it's a pattern. For me, it kind of corroborated what she was saying, because that is a pattern that has been identified in other spaces of a power differential. And so that really corroborated for me what she was laying out. And then the thing that has really stayed with me in her final chapter, which she calls where we go from here, she lays out a model of kind of working through fragility so that you actually able to hear feedback and incorporate it. So she uses herself as a model throughout, but in this last chapter, she talks about a case where she was meeting with a new colleague, like a web developer or something. And she talks about what happens. And then she makes an off-handed remark about another colleague. So the web developer is black American, and one of her other colleagues is also black. And she makes an off-handed comment about her colleague's hair, natural hair, that she knows the colleague, and maybe it was sorta within the bounds of their friendship, but she said it in front of this new person. And then word gets back to her, through her colleagues that, that remark made the new colleague uncomfortable. And so she talks about what she does then once she hears this word and she goes, first she talks to a white colleague who also has anti-racist, you know, goals to kind of process her feelings. And then she reaches out to the person who was offended and says, "Are you willing to meet with me so that I can-" I don't remember if she used the word apologize, But "-to talk about my unintended" "or offhanded racist remarks." Something like that. And she says that that's an important step because she has to be willing to take no for an answer. The woman was willing to meet with her and they talked about it. And she said, "I know that when I said this" "it was inappropriate and I'm sorry." And the woman of color says more about why it felt inappropriate to her. And then DiAngelo says she did something. And this is the bit, all of this sounds like I'm like, "Okay, I can do that. I can do that." And then the next thing that she does though, is the thing that I was like, "Wow, am I there yet?" She said to her colleague, "Was there anything else that I missed" "that was inappropriate or that made you uncomfortable?" And there was something. So then the colleague shares this other thing that DiAngelo had done, which she explains in the thing, but I'm not going to go into too much. And she says, she, you know, it hurt. And she worked through it. Like she tried hard not to react. And then she apologized again and then said, "Is there anything else that needs to be said" "or heard before we can move on?" And I was like, reading, I wasn't listening, reading this. I'm thinking, "Wow, that's so grounded." Like the ability to take feedback around anything is a skill that we don't always learn well. And because white people have been taught that we are entitled to comfort, like learning to take feedback around our own expressed racism, internalized racism can be particularly hard in that moment. Like I'm really sitting with that. Like that's clearly a goal and DiAngelo makes it clear how it can work. And now she and this colleague have a much deeper and more trusting relationship as a result. And even though I spend a lot of time thinking and talking about this, I think, "would I be capable to have that?" To go that extra step and say, "What did I miss?" and say, "What else needs to be?"

- Further expose yourself

- Yeah, yeah.

- Like, go even deeper, opening to

- Talk about vulnerability. I know Brene Brown is talking and thinking about this right now, a little shout out to her, but I was, it left me feeling like or reminding me that this is a journey that will never be over. That's kind of where this book like that final chapter of where we go really left me.

- Do you remember what the woman said? Is that something that we have as a teaser for people to actually go and read White Fragility in order to hear where the conversation went?

- So the thing that she had missed was DiAngelo had dismissed a survey that the colleague had written and the colleague said, "I spend my whole life justifying that I'm smart enough." "And the way you glibly dismissed that survey, you know," "it kind of hurt." And then the final thing the colleague said in terms of what else needs to be seen or heard. She said, "if I have feedback for you in the future" "would you prefer that I give it privately or publicly?" And DiAngelo said, because of right. And DiAngelo said, "because of what I do," "I think you should give it publicly" "so that I may model hearing feedback." Which again, like really underscored, you know, how much further along in her journey she is in terms of being able to welcome that. She's right. I mean, how can we get better if we can't hear where we're falling short? And it feels like a risk and well, I'll let you

- Go ahead. Finish your thought, finish your thought. You just read this book. So it's energy around it please finish what I was going to say.

- I say it feels like a risk. And then that risk was underscored again for me too, when. I was thinking about DiAngelo and I was thinking about all of the events of the past several weeks months I don't know. And I thought, "I wonder what DiAngelo had to say about Amy Cooper." She was the woman who attacked Christian Cooper verbally in Central Park.

- By calling the police. Erroneously calling the police.

- Right. And sort of telling him that that's what she was doing. Anyway. I was thinking, I wonder what Robin DiAngelo would have to say about that moment that we all saw on film on video. And so I went on to Twitter and I searched DiAngelo and she's not on Twitter anymore. She had been, but she has deleted her account. And when I searched her, you know, her name as a hashtag or white fragility as a hashtag, I see why she deleted her account. Like there's a lot of people who are real mad at her. And so that just kind of underscored like the risk for me, not that it's going to deter me, but you know, it's real, I mean the white supremacy is well guarded.

- You know, and for me what I hold in that story is the experience of the black woman, right. And the courage it took and the strength and the clarity and the profound professionalism, because in that moment, she also was being vulnerable in asking those questions, because for us as black women, like, I appreciate that the Amy Cooper scene was recorded. You know, whether it's or not, it's quite appropriate. So, you know, but, you know, I kind of think of it in my head right now as a verb, you know, like, is somebody getting "Amy Coopered" right now, which I don't, you know, that doesn't fit overall with my values or anything I don't want to be mean to this person. And in that scene, you know, for black people and, for black women speaking from personal experience, like, it wasn't clear in that moment, right? Like there's I think for a number of the readers, there's a subtext of trust. That's not there for us as women of color. Like when she asked that question, it was in the context of relationship. But any time we reach out our hand and ask a question like that, we don't know if that's going to be the moment where more white fragility is going to show up and what we're going to get some kind of backlash or attack. And so in that conversation, I also just more viscerally than intellectually feel connected to that woman. And also just relating around the choices I've made mostly to approach people privately. Most of the time, a number of the colleagues and leaders with whom I've worked I'd say it's rare and special when I have someone in my life or in my career who is like you, or who is functioning in the ways that Robin DiAngelo did. Most people have varying levels of white fragility. It just can be terrifying. It takes a lot of courage on both sides for different reasons. It takes a lot of courage for white folks to confront white supremacy. And it takes a lot of courage and hope or any number of resolve among people of color to decide, even though I'm actually saying the right thing that, you know, God willing history will bear it out right now I know I'm saying the right thing. And I don't fully know at any given moment when I'm going to be lauded, when I'm going to be treated respectfully, when I'm going to be attacked, like, am I going to be praised and to point of tokenization? And so just all around that conversation took immense courage and resolve and leaning in and vulnerability for all the parties involved. You're going to say something.

- Well, DiAngelo's says what you're saying about the courage and the fact that.

- Nice. Good.

- She talks about one gentleman at some sort of training who she says, "what would it look like?" "What would the world look like if white people were able" "to just hear feedback and just say," 'Thank you, I'll work on that.' And she said, his response was to sigh and say, "That would be revolutionary." And, you know, that's what you're saying. Yeah. I mean, it would change everything.

- And what feels so raw and potent about this moment is that I think. We're not there yet. But this moment I think is moving us is moving more people closer to that. That's why this moment is so pregnant with opportunity. Yeah, go ahead.

- It is. It is. And I want to just call out, you just praised me and I thank you for saying, you know, there are people like me are rare and I just, I don't want to exempt myself though. I don't want to.

- I didn't say you were perfect. No, but you are fantastic.

- Well, thank you. Thank you.

- I'm not perfect either.

- And none of us are, and I just want to, I feel like there's a lot of times, especially when I talk to other white folks who care about racism, where we tend to set things up in a way where we're talking about us/them within the white community or within white people. And we think of ourselves as the good guys and those other. And I think that actually when we

- That binary isn't helpful,

- It's not helpful. And I think it's beyond not helpful. I think it actually hurts us when we think of racism as something that bad people do, then that's makes it even harder that makes the white fragility even more, even more likely, because if you say, "Well, Tracie that thing you just said was racist." And I'm like, "But I'm not a bad person." Right. And then, and then I fall into my DARVO and you know, and I'm unable to hear that. I'm unable to hear the feedback, which is that thing you just said was informed by all of the racism that we've all been eating, drinking, sleeping, breathing forever. And so I want to thank you. And I value, you know, our relationship and I do work to work through my white fragility.

- Doesn't mean you're perfect.

- And that doesn't mean I don't have it.

- Right, right. Right. Of course, of course. And I think, you know, that's all we can. That's a whole episode in and of itself. But I was just thinking about earlier today about this whole thing, like who's racist and who isn't and where is it and where is it not? And like, and though, everything that you said is true, and it matters to me that you have an explicitly more multicultural mindset and that you are able to hear things in my conversations with you when I'm saying the same thing to everyone, and we're able to go deeper because you're able to process and hold more. That matters. And it does make a real difference in my experience of feeling safe with you, of feeling profound kavod, feeling like I am respected and honored and I do my best to extend that back to you. And while also knowing that none of us are perfect, like my ideal relationship with white folks is not when they're perfect, it's that I know that we have a shared commitment to equity and justice, and that we have a good pattern of communication, such that when things do arise, they don't operate with as much white fragility and we're actually able to navigate it. And my part of that is that I know that I also come to the table being open and actually receptive to receiving meaningful critical feedback and the tricky dance that I need to navigate within that as a times, is me sussing out what's legitimate and what's legitimate that's also tinge with racial bias. And what to me is just straight up, not actually helpful feedback. But although usually in the context of those more special trusting relationships I have, that's not as much of an issue. So I think this is probably a good place to end the session for now. I think in terms of action items for folks, if people are looking to engage more, we would love for you to do at least two things. Maybe Tracie wants to add some things to the list. One is to, read White Fragility by Robin DiAngelo. I love her leadership and I've read excerpts and read enough of her material that I've recommended it, even though I haven't actually read it, but I need to it's on my list. So I would encourage you to read it. And then also if you have questions or ideas, feel free to comment whether it's on our YouTube video or on the various places that our podcast lives. Comment and let us know how you are engaging with these questions in your own life. And if you have these ideas and concepts and values. And finally, if you have questions for us, then hit us up on our website. That's it for now.

- Yeah, I think so. Well, I guess I will add just one thing. If you are listening and you are, and you have white skin like I do, then I think that model that DiAngelo gave is a good one. And think about who your accountability partner is, the white person that you can go to and sort of talk about things and process before you go to the person of color. And it needs to be someone who will hold you accountable, not someone who will say, "Oh, she's overreacting." So think about who that person is that you can use as your kind of processing partner. I think that is an important thing that you can do right now.

- [April Baskin] Thanks for tuning in. Our show's theme music was composed by Elliot Hammer. You can find this track and other beats on Instagram at Elliot Hammer. If this episode resonated with you, please share it and subscribe. To join the conversation, visit jewstalkracialjustice.com, where you can send us a question or suggestion, access our show notes and learn more about our team. Take care until next time and stay humble and keep going.