Inspired by April’s appearance on a panel entitled, “Religion is…divisive,” and in the shadow of Martin Luther King Jr Day, we dig into the ways religion can be used to defend or to dismantle systemic oppression. Together, we think through what we believe comes after the ellipses (we don’t LOVE ‘Religion is… divisive.’), weaving in our understanding of the role of religion historically and contemporarily.
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Read more about David Kyuman Kim (Executive Director, Center for the Comparative Studies in Race and Ethnicity, Stanford University): https://ccsre.stanford.edu/people/david-kyuman-kim
Watch Eboo Patel’s TED Talk, “Building bridges - religions’ role in our societies:” https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GYLesUKHPGc
Learn more about Dr. Gabor Maté: https://drgabormate.com/
Discussion and reflection questions:
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Inspired by April's appearance on a panel entitled religion is dot, dot dot divisive. And in the shadow of Martin Luther King Jr. Day, we dig into the ways religion can be used to defend or to dismantle systemic oppression. You're listening to the Joyous Justice podcast, a weekly show hosted by April Baskin with Tracie Guy Decker. in a complex world in which systemic oppression conditions us to deny others and our own humanity. let's dedicate ourselves to the pursuit and embodiment of wholeness, love and thriving in the world. And in our own lives. It's time to heal and flourish our way to a more joyous and just future. Tracie, Hey, friend, Hey, friends, in April. So we're recording this on a Sunday. And on the Friday before this Sunday, I had the honour of being asked to speak at a seminar at Columbia that I honestly didn't fully understand what it was about, like I thought I was speaking to like, a seminar of undergrad or graduate students. But it turns out it's like, intellectuals from multiple universities who are coming together fist project and doing like a discussion series like an intellectual discussion series and inviting scholars and subject matter experts on a range of issues to respond to the prompt religion and the subtext is American religion is dot, dot dot. And they've gone through political that I honestly don't remember the other ones they mentioned the other day, but um, hypothetically, like healing or something. And the one that I was invited, along with four other co panelists to speak to was American religion is divisive. And that conversation wasn't exactly private, per se, but it was a closed door conversation, but I thought I would share some of the ideas that I had and some of the interesting bits and things that I took away from that exchange of ideas from some leading edge thinkers on on these subjects. And I thought that our relationship and partnership in this podcast would be a great place for us to do what April and Tracy do with conversations and put our unique intellectual spiritually. And social justice Lee inspired sank on this prompt American religion is ellipses. To visit of and and I will say to this is like my first thought when I hear that when I read that, and also to also one of the professors in the space also invited a reframe of that prompt, that I think has some interesting implications, which is, I think it was something along the lines of religion as it's developed within the United States, is divisive, right. And so when I either when I first hear this, my thought is, this is a common thought that a lot of people say and think that I kind of front, I would, I would begin with, I don't agree with in the sense that it's so very either or, and I have a both end approach. So I ultimately do agree with it. But it's so like, such a polarizing and simplistic viewpoint, and also was rooted in and I don't mean to insult many different people, and a number of whom, who say this either had been witnessed to and or have personally been harmed by encounters with religion in America, so that and so that's not something to dismiss. But my first thought is, this is what a lot of people say. And as a coach, as someone who thinks critically about a number of issues in the world, I'm someone who's much more of a fan of nuance, and this is very much a both and situation for me. And my first thought is, I don't know if it's so much that religion is divisive, so much as systemic oppression, and histories of harm are divisive and religion has been both complicit in and also has actively serve to fight has played all different kinds of roles in the context of systemic oppression. And and in religion at times throughout history and in the United States has, has certainly been used as a vehicle for both harm and healing. And to me, if religion didn't exist, whatever might be in its form, or that there would be some other vehicle that either would be created or would have that was in existence that would have been leveraged to be in service of systems of oppression, which doesn't mean that in some cases with certain religions, in certain ways that some of the origins of systemic oppression might have some of their roots, say in elements of Christian hegemony. And the ways during like, when, you know, when people were helped me, I'm not I'm not as into that facet of history, but like in the Middle Ages and stuff, where they learned in sociology, that the crucible, thank you, right crusades, but even before that, around that time, like when people were peasants and things, like the ways that the church, the in, in collaboration in, you know, in terms of being complicit with state oppression, yeah, or being in service of it, you know, started to shift some of the fields of theology to better serve people working themselves to the bone until the day they die, in the hopes that they would then go to heaven. So, so that's a little bit of my interest. So I was I was a bit more polished in certain ways when I was speaking, because I have eight minutes to share my bits. And so a shared a little bit of what I've shared. Now, I'm a little bit more relational and freeform with you around it, Tracy and with our friends listening in. But um, that's a little bit of my intro for it. And a number of interesting ideas were shared people who are really studying this in different ways. A really cool leader bringing in some joyous justice align thoughts. I'm not sure if I'm pronouncing his name correctly, hopefully I will, because I feel like we might eventually be like professional friends or colleagues in some way. He's a cool guy. David, you thought his last name might be human? Yeah, human Kim. He is a director of I don't remember the precise name, but essentially the racial justice center at Stanford, what we will include information about all of this in the show notes. And, and he shared a piece in advance about that was published in a journal about love and the role of love in the public square in the context of these conversations, and also to I loved his I was like, Oh, I didn't I think of that when he was speaking. He said, and so there's this question. And then there's also the, there's the questions that follow it to me around what, in light of the ways that religion, American religion is and is not divisive? What are the opportunities for solidarity that we have? What do we want to aspire to? And I was like, Oh, nothing to say that. That's also like, it's nice to because he's not that much better. You know, he's, he's, I believe he's older than me. And, like, okay, okay, so I have more time to integrate all these different ways of my knowing. But I was like, wait, wait to bring in the joyous justice element here, David, that that was interesting. So but I want us to have our own conversation rather than now. So. So that's my intro, Tracy, I pass it over to you to respond to me to share your own thoughts about it. Bring in any juicy anecdotes or metaphors, whatever is arising for you. Yeah, you're welcome. I have similar thoughts to you in terms of the like, wow, that's very either or, like, I feel like, I'm seeing that a lot. I mean, just personally, in my social media feed, I saw somebody recently who was like, this thing has this bad effect, therefore, we should get rid of it. It's like my stone metaphor thing. Like, like, yeah, yeah. It's like, so your stone metaphor, specifically, is that people say, you know, this stone has been used as an object for people. So we need to get stone. And not recognizing that stones can also be used to build and to heal muscles and heal. Yeah. So I think there's that there's also like, even something that like, like an act like it can be done poorly. Right? Yield, right, like, bad doctors. That doesn't mean we should throw away medicine, right? As a field, and that's what this point is, on social media, right? And in medicine, right and about about medicine. It's so fascinating, because there's so many ways in mainstream medicine that has deeply ingrained that has deeply embedded within it. systemic oppression and bias and different things. But like, that would be really ill advised. Just like, like Yes, wait needs massive change. And also, it has, it also saves lives every single day, even as it fails. A number of people I still think overall and more often than not, is saving lives. Like that's an important variable. Yeah, even if we levy a hefty critique at a given field or institution. Yeah. So specifically about religion being divisive, and one of the things that, you know, that also comes up for me trying to say what order to do this in is that it's been my experiences personally with individuals. So I'm just going to name that, but it's been my experience, that when when folks are like, fully grounded and centered and comfortable in their own face, that others faiths are not a threat. Right like that, they can learn about it and see what resonates and see where it's different. And that's all okay. And then folks who are maybe a little less, they don't even necessarily recognize that there is Yeah. But for whatever reason, their faith feel is is more vulnerable, they feel like then all of a sudden, another faith becomes a threat and must be amped down or controlled, or denied or proved to be racial trauma that like that I've, that I've noticed personally as, as a former scholar of religion, so I've spent a lot of time with a lot of religious folks from different from different traditions. So this is something that like comes up when we leave when I hear that phrase that religion is, is divisive. You know, I think of my religion as like, I don't know, like, I'm borrowing a little from George Carlin had a bit, but that I don't want to get into but if you know it, like, you'll know that that's where I get, it was kind of like a pair of comfortable shoes, that like, really feel good to me and make it easier for me to walk longer distances. I would never expect my shoes to fit, you know, I'm happy to let you try to your shoes are lovely Tracy, I have seen them. But that's sort of like, and I would never deny you your own shoes that are made to fit your warmth. And so that's, that's another thing that sort of comes up to me that I think helps to further for me, kind of explain what I noticed before, like, if other people's shoes aren't quite comfortable, while they're walking or like some Something about it just isn't quite quite working, then, you know, it becomes more important that every match. So that those are some of the things that were coming up for me immediately, because it's it's not actually religion. It's not religion that's divisive. It's the requirement, or the expectation, or the demand or the insert verb here that we all agree about religion. Well, that's one. Right? Well, so that's one facet of and then so here's the interesting thing is that I don't have the full background on the purpose of the seminar. So there's like part of me that wants to bring in certain things that were said. But I think, perhaps that I think that they My sense is maybe they're like, potentially preparing a white paper or a series of things around it. So I say, I'm going to be like, lightly what you said spawned a couple of different thoughts that I'm really excited to share now, Tracy, that are like, that's fresh thinking. So I'm, so one of the pieces that like, you know, Eboo Patel is in the room who runs interfaith America, that's that does really important work. And he shared his TED Talk that speaks to that's worth checking out his TEDx talk that speaks to all of the different positive things that religion has brought to American life, like he notes that a large majority of hospitals are faith based. And they serve a wide clientele, that a number of universities that his personal narrative that his family has deeply benefited from the resources offered to his father say I think it's funny we went to Notre DOM as as a South Asian Muslim man that they you know, that there's an also that a large, like a large percentage of it 60%, or some large percentage of social services in this country and in various parts of the countries are through different institutions. So that was seven, I feel like there were that was brought into that was a part of the some of the pre readings that were sent. And that's something that's out in the ether. So I feel comfortable saying that. But one thing that I wanted to bring up that was attention I felt in the conversation that evolved to is that I think you're naming one facet of the ways that religion can was a reason why religion can be divisive, and I would add some other pieces that I think you're aware of that also. Both didn't did it explicit. We come to mind, but as I heard people talking about other things in a way that I felt like was missing, Steven and light acknowledgement, just like just a subtle, you know, like preface or, or caveat that a number of different institutions or individuals or people who had certain negative intentions can use religion at times of the Christian church or in a but also other religious vehicles to for incitement for the incitement of violence, right, or for the restricting of people's civil civil liberties or different things along that nature. And there was an interesting or historically to your point earlier, like for justification for justification, right, you know, that like that a number of people, I think, would say, in really compelling ways that that wasn't the church, but that, you know, the kk k USD crosses, right, like the brand crosses, it was, it was religious iconography. Certainly agents of the church, during slavery, used Christian doctrine like, which is like an example of what I alluded to earlier. But I think when you get into the specificity of it of the way that it starts to get really visceral and very upsetting very quickly, right, that it's not when when I say that, that religion can be complicit in systems of oppression that can seem somewhat distance, as opposed to people were incited by their churches or houses of worship, to target, maim, and murder, and to incite racial terror, right. And so that's right. And so. So somebody said something that was really interesting that I think, perhaps I should honor the container of the confidentiality of the container, but I want to say something off of it. So one thing to think about is like, and there's obviously a lot of diversity there, diversity, but are there certain ways that religion takes form and across different experiences, the way that it works, and it functions often not always, but in a number of within a number of different communities, certainly, within Islam, Judaism and Christianity, it talks, it goes into the realm of like, spirit and energy in different ways. And it's different orientations with that, and in in context in the United States. Right now I'm reading, I'm really loving it, I think it's the book that I was looking for, for the past few years, the myth of normal by Dr. Gabor Ma Tei. That is like combining all the things I've been working to combine about like feelings, and spirit and body and emotions and ailments and mental health stuff, and combining all these different things. And I'm in the section where he's talking about emotions and spirit of energy and different things of that nature. And he says, but also, we just know this in general in our culture that. And this ties a little bit into what you spoke about. In the previous episode, it's weird, like, it's basically in our culture, there is an aversion to having meaningful awareness around emotion and spirit, and energy and these different things that are, well, for some people in their in their ethos that doesn't exist at all, from, from my perspective, they very much do exist. So there's any number of ways you can orient them, and it's actually quite powerful. And it fills a particular need in the human experience. And often, religion is one of the primary vehicles that people get touched and that people get nourishment and or potentially poison around around those subjects in a way that's not so regulated in other ways. There's a bit of that in terms of mental health and even that is still somewhat constrained around emotions and feelings but in terms of spirit or message like energy, different things of this nature, our our orientation, or lack there of with a higher power. But I just see how that could add to the perspective about something that we otherwise don't know much about. There's not another there's not really any there's starting to be now but over the over US history. Religion has largely dominated that space in different ways. And there hasn't been something external that could also outside of I mean, there were some things that they were attempted to be annihilated through like indigenous cultures and also other cultures in the world. And so and these are things that really, honestly compel a lot of people and heavily influenced how they live and how they vote, what they view about these things. And people often cling to their beliefs about this real these these experiences in different ways really intensely. And, and there's just a way where that dynamics we contributes to at times people perceiving that religion is divisive, because that's an area that's kind of similar to but different in terms of what I talk about, about collective trauma and how people conflate interpersonal challenges with often with what I think is actually the burden that we all collectively carry about the countries and different systems and structures, inability to support and be accountable around those histories of harm. And similarly with this, there aren't many, at least in American society, I think in other cultures, like in Chinese culture, and other ethnic and indigenous cultures, there are structures and forms of medicine and whole fields of thinking and thought that help that is rooted and isn't necessarily based on religion, but it is. But it's more similar to what we've gotten in an American society about how to think about the weather, and how to think about math. And similarly, they say like, these are the meridians on your body. And if you're feeling this, you can likely expect this but in America, a lot of that thinking for various reasons, has been relegated, or anything remotely like that has been relegated to religious space. And I think that, like my analysis is that I'm happy for you to put your bring your mind your perspective on it, Tracy, is that energy is a huge part of our human experience, whether it's emotions, or interpersonal energy, or the energy that we feel of collective experience, whether it's around trauma or collective joy, that this is a part of the human experience. And people have different needs around this, and they need a place for that to be met. And I think it at times has given religious institutions disproportionate power, because it was one of the only places where people could go, to try in some way to get those needs met. And when you have what I already said, but we already just what we already said about many, a number of different religious institutions being complicit or proactively a part of systems of oppression. Also, then melding directly and indirectly with within the realm of spirit and energy in our souls and our emotions and our hearts and the things that actually move us right, like a number of my best teachers and social change work consistently say that most of these things, you can learn things, but it needs to happen at the heart level through stories through people connecting with their own stories to hearing other people's stories and that area at times in certain ways. And I think less so but historically within the United States has, has been situated within religious spaces. That that all jives for me. I think one of the one of the ways that I would frame it I've written about before, actually is because that religion has been one of the few places where folks are able to sort of experience spiritual or energetic, it's socially acceptable to experience those things. And because religion has been weaponized as a tool of the oppressor, in some cases, especially, especially within the 20th and 21st centuries, right, like some of the loudest, oppressive voices say that they are speaking with a Christian lens. And so I know I have had almost like a stigma around talking about it, because because of the evil we're thinking of that I you know, that I have inherited, and I'm working to undo, like those who weaponize God language are often loud in the public square. And I don't want to be associated with them by using God language, right? And so I just like using God language. Yeah. Similarly, which the effect of that right is actually to abandon God to those who would weaponize God? At least in the public square. And, and I think you can replace that word, God with spirit and our higher power, or sort of more than us more than the sum of our parts, whatever word works for you. And I think for me, that's a that's a part of what has happened. And so in terms of the difference of And what you're describing, and the ways in which it has been weaponized for oppression and and then and then stigmatized right by different parts of society so that especially especially white Jews, right there's there's very much like white reformed Jews talk about God when we are in synagogue, maybe. Right? Maybe read this a bit Maybe there's even jokes about the center within like within like the within what's it called? What's the JCS at the Jewish Theological Seminary, there's jokes about like, but leave God out, you know, you within the concert like this is a very Ashkenazi Jewish experience, among which many actually is a separation from our Christian neighbors who talk about God oppressors at time. Yeah, who also, you know, where I leveraged that or context of pilgrims or the Holocaust or different moments of acute. That's when I insert I want to, I want to interject when, when you have a moment, Yeah, I'm ready. So like, I was able to further think about this, because I'm thinking about this in this kind of way for the first time. So like what I was talking about before, one way I would describe it is like, I don't have an exact destination here is the unknown. It's like energies that kind of go into the realm of the unknown. And there's lots of our lives that unknown in. And actually it can be known again, as I mentioned before, in other cultures, but I'm just putting the interesting pieces together about how these things ended up working, in some ways in healing, either in profoundly healing ways or in toxic ways when we remember which some people like our students would know this. Or people are our clients and students who've been in our coaching and learning programs. But, you know, joined a group Professor Georgia group talks a lot about the different ways that whiteness manifests, and then that it manifested in the context of slavery, to mitigate cognitive dissonance, and massive emotional numbing was one of them. And so that set up the and so that became not only through that, but also through other means, became a way of and similarly with sexism. So you have like to have these massive, long standing sexism, even even longer forms of deeply entrenched systemic oppression. And this is true of a lot of systemic oppression. But especially in these cases, that heavily in order for the dehumanization, of different populations to occur, and for other people to be functional, there needed to be massive numbing, and distancing from emotion, to be the norm. And yet, at the same time, during these formative years, in our country, when there are many immigrant populations and encounters of difference, and fighting for land, mostly in the context of land theft, but different people fighting for lands, land and, and sovereignty from different angles, or for sovereignty or power over, and there are things like fear that are arising, and when there's not a place. So I just, I already kind of said this, but I'm also not thinking about like bringing in other pieces of things that I know. And thinking about, then who is left to deal with fear, when society in general is not is is actively engaging in a range of emotional numbing techniques to to decrease the cognitive dissonance from being collectively directly and indirectly, deeply engaged and invested in horrific dehumanization in the context of slavery in the context of the attempted genocide of indigenous peoples and in the context of women in public space and in private space, being the targets of her rific. dehumanization and violence and oppression and at times death, the jokes that are in our common parlance and our language that many of us don't know, have a history of about violence or against women. And gender nonconforming folks, and trans folks. Yeah, I'm just continuing to chew on this with you, you know, that, that I'm not fully sure, like I haven't thought hasn't fully formed. But there's like an interesting interplay here, where there's this void, and that doesn't mean that even with all this tamping down, people still have fears and different feelings that they need an outlet to process in some way if they're going to be able to be somewhat functional human beings, even within this. And since institutions, we're really locking it down in different ways and you Even within the mental health in this, like, even within the mental health system, there's deep history around this for a long time, right around calling women hysterical around any sense of feeling about the horrific trauma that is a part of life as a woman for most of human history and pathologizing that rather than being like, it makes sense that she would want to cry like it makes sense today when things are much better that many women would want to cry for days on end in light of things they are navigating and yet just so juicy so so maybe we can conclude by like either taking methadone retrofits mister a doctor, or professor, but David Kim's approach, David Cuban Kim, and pardon me, new friend, David Hi, hear this, I'm mispronouncing your name or if anybody knows you can message us and phonetically spell it for us if you've had the pleasure of working with and getting to know him. Be on a quick introduction on a seminar. What would we want to put at the end of that ellipses of like American religion is? How would we want to conclude it? Do you want to go first? Or would you like me to go first, Tracy, I feel like I want you to go first. But also, if you don't want to, I you saying that I would like to be able to say this in the future, or this is what I'd like to say about it now. Now, like, if we would want to like just not not like as a final thing, but just like, if we both agree that like divisive, is overly simplistic, and also doesn't do anything to acknowledge concepts like shout out to Dr. King. You know, the Reverend Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. and his conception of and align movements, continued championing of the concept of Beloved Community, which aligns very deeply with themes around that we talked about it within joyous justice for how do we eradicate oppression without eradicating or targeting people, but instead targeting systems and patterns and behaviors, and honoring the divinity within all of us and moving toward what we call collective liberation and, and what different people within the Christian community and from Dr. King's lineage call Beloved Community, which is deeply aligned with living in a world where there is no poverty where there is justice, where people have their needs met, where there is no war, where there is no military, minimal or no military where we are able to coexist and live well and have more peaceful unarmed approaches to navigating complex complex still going to happen, but in a way, that's more humanized. So anyway, so I forgot how I got on that just now. But he wanted us to answer that. Yeah. But yeah, we're going back to that question. Yeah. So. So just to say that, like, obviously, there's also really so like, American religion is or like religion is. I feel like there's a couple of different ways that I could go like, the first thing that came to mind is complicated. That was the very first thing that came to mind. And then the second thing, which is maybe a controversial statement, Ooh, let's hear it. American religion is providing services that should be provided by the state. The second one, that was my thought when I was listening to Mr. Patel's talk was like, okay, that's true. And that's good, but also the state should be, yeah, offering those foundational services and offering foundational inclusion. Well, I love that. And I love that. Thank you. Those are two great ones. I mean, I think there's like endless ones we could like do a for loop. So I think for me, April type stuff was coming up. So like, so I'm trying to think like what's more concise? American religion would benefit from compassionate accountability. American religion deserves to celebrate all that it brings and can also in the different facets and ways it shows up, take time to reflect historically and now if there are ways that it is a part of perpetuating harm, and sign up our gratitude growing program or a roadmap to resilience and or not, but just take time to look at with eyes of compassion and restorative justice. So there's probably some reason somewhere back there, even if it was from a mo We'll see oppressive place where someone felt unsafe. And we can look back at that, and perhaps cringe a little bit, but also have compassionate hearts and energy toward that. And so to me, American religion can benefit from compassionate accountability. And having the opportunity to finish that thought that I just started to, to celebrate what is great, and to also look deeply at places where we could align more with Beloved Community and joyous justice and collective liberation. Let's see, American religion is ours to claim. So for those of us who have been traumatized by it, in the ways in places that makes sense, there's so many different opportunities around the country online, for people to find places where we can heal, and if we want, and also, we might not, there are a number of people who are secular. And so I would add in also, like, American religion is optional. Like some people like, I think, you know, from a Jewish perspective, or some progressive Jews, like, you know, they're I think it's Rabbi Larry Hoffman, a prominent reformed Rabbi once said, from his perspective, that Judaism doesn't exist just to exist, it exists because it's a service to the world, it's of service to Jews, and it's of service to the world and the point at which it just exists, or just continuity itself. It's not worth continuing. And so I don't know if that's true, other people's religions or spiritual practices, but you know, I think I have heard Christian ministers, Reverend Dr. Brad Braxton, I heard him talk about, if the church becomes just a social club, then it has lost its lost its way. And it is, in fact, exists to serve, so serve and to provide spiritual nourishment. So I liked what I just said, but I forgot what it was already. But American right, what did I say I'm gonna go American religions claim is ours to claim, yeah, or optional, right? Because there's also as many benefits as it has, there are also folks who are secular and coming from a place of love. You know, I don't I don't think that an ethical. I mean, I have a hard time envisioning a society that doesn't acknowledge spirit in any way. But I, you know, I can envision multiple countries. And I think there are some who operate beautifully and well and can care for their people very well without religion. So to me, from my perspective, American religion is optional. And even a number of the studies show this and various communities include, including certainly the Jewish community, and others are panicked about this. And that, to me is not the greatest concern. I think, justice and spiritual nourishment and shared belonging and care and collective care are very important and the ways in which we can leverage and relate to our religions so that they are in service of that. And it all is a little bit like chicken and egg because, you know, these ideas that I'm sharing these values, at least for me, are deeply rooted in my spiritual upbringing and, honestly, interfaith exposure across different traditions. So I think it has I think American religion has some cleaning up to do and a lot to celebrate. And it's ours to claim and make the most of for our own spiritual and communal fulfillment and to continue to work for if I want to use some traditional patriotic language, a more perfect and just a scrap perfect, F perfect. A more just and loving, union and country that incorporates land back and peace and courage and action and Yeah, anything else you want to add Tracy? Feel like it's like a whole nother episode. So all right. Much love friends, wishing you a great week. And we look forward to being in touch and as always, always, feel free to reach out if you'd like to follow up with additional ideas either on our website contact form or if you want to tag one of us on social media and share your thoughts we also welcome that too. Alright, until next time, Much Love. Hey, before you go, I wanted to talk to you about something. Odds are you have been conditioned to treat certain behaviors as simply the cost of success. Things like urgency for fear people pleasing and ignoring your own feelings and needs. These defaults maintain a harmful status quo and ultimately, they undermine your capacity to reach your desired destination. Hashtag burnout anyone. We can show you alternatives. Join us at a five day workshop roadmap to resilience. It's just one hour a day at noon Eastern starting January 23. For five days. If you can't make one session, don't sweat it. We record them all. Find the link to register in the show notes. We'll see you there. Thanks for tuning in. To learn more about joyous justice LLC, our team and how you can get involved with our community. Check out the info in our show notes, or find us at joyous justice.com If you enjoy this episode, show us some love. Subscribe wherever you're listening. Tell your people share what you're learning and how your leadership is evolving. Stay humble, but not too humble. And keep going because the future is ours to co create