The Joyous Justice Podcast

Ep 107: Forgiveness without Apology?

September 22, 2022 April Baskin and Tracie Guy-Decker Episode 107
The Joyous Justice Podcast
Ep 107: Forgiveness without Apology?
Show Notes Transcript

“You are not obligated to forgive someone who has offered neither apology nor repair.” This opinion is one both April and Tracie have received at different points in their lives, and which is surfacing now as we approach the high holy days. And though we both needed to hear that message when it was delivered, we’re also realizing that it is not the end of the story. The longing for healing and wholeness after hurt has us looking for a third way–a path toward teshuvah, or return, and wholeness, shalem/sh’lemut–even in the absence of apology. 

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Learn more about Desmond Tutu and Mpho Tutu’s work, The Book of Forgiving: The Fourfold Path for Healing Ourselves and Our World: https://www.harpercollins.com/products/the-book-of-forgiving-desmond-tutumpho-tutu?variant=32122225983522

Read about the Japanese art of kintsugi, “golden joinery”: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kintsugi

Tara Brach relays the story of the Golden Buddha in her work Radical Compassion: Learning to Love Yourself and Your World with the Practice of RAIN: https://www.tarabrach.com/books/radical-compassion/April and Tracie talked about the Golden Buddha in our first-ever Rosh Hashanah episode, Ep 2: Rosh Hashanah, Prince, and Visions, Both Big and Small: https://jewstalkracialjustice.buzzsprout.com/1146023/5430970-ep-2-rosh-hashanah-prince-and-visions-both-big-small

Tracie:

As we approach the High Holy Days, we're thinking about forgiveness, and the relationship between forgiveness and to tshuva for return and Shlaim or wholeness.

Unknown:

This is Jews talk racial justice with April and Tracy,

Tracie:

a weekly show hosted by April Baskin and Tracy guy Decker.

Unknown:

in a complex world change takes courage, wholehearted relationships can keep us accountable. How do you hoody Tracie? April?

April Baskin:

And how do you hoody to you, beloved listener, we are so glad to be connecting with you. This has been a sweet and meaningful a rule for us. In that we've taken time to invite our community to share what's on their hearts and minds. And by the time this will be posted, it'll just be a few hours before our final little a little conversation with some of our beloved community members. And definitely a couple of days past or a few days past depending upon when you catch it, the first call that we did. So wherever you are in this month, I hope that whether you've been engaging directly with us or in your own practice, I hope that this Elul has been meaningful for you. And the very least if you're a little has been whatever it has been, you can take a chance you can take a moment whether Rosh Hashana is upon us as you are listening to this or closely approaching that you have a moment to just catch your breath and breathe and whether or not and just anchor in to your own body and practice loving noticing of what's coming up for you. Trying some deep belly breaths. If there's some other embodied practice you like whether it's stretching or jumping jacks, or stretching and yawning, that you can connect in I know, for me in certain years past, that was about the extent of my Eylul was thinking a little bit that we're in a little and it's approaching and right as the High Holidays were either happening or quickly approaching, just really starting to anchor in and be like, Okay, I will be doing my festival and nephesh now and over these coming days and take time to do some reflection as I have time. And we wanted to offer you a juicy conversation that I'm not fully sure where it's going to go. I raised an issue with Tracy just yesterday. That's been on my mind. And we what happened was what often happens with us is that a really interesting, dynamic conversation ensued. And I was like, Oh, actually, because it was a piece of thought leadership that I wanted to share with the world. And I was like, hey, and we have a vehicle for this. Let's talk about this on the podcast. So I think this is really great and exciting. Because if you have been engaged, if you have not been able to do much for a rule, then I think that this will be a generative, really lovely boost to support you. As a little winds down and the new year begins and the holiday season officially commences this will be helpful for you. And if you've been engaging in any number of different practices, perhaps with us, perhaps with other communities, perhaps solo or with a buddy or a router partner, than I think this also will be really helpful. So I just think this is perfectly timed. And I'm excited to dive in. So let's go. So I shared with Tracy just the other day that I've noticed a few different times amidst my scrolling on social media and looking at different things that I saw a similar statement being stated by Jews and by white Ashkenazi Jews specifically that may or may not be relevant in our conversation, but sociologically, that was the identity of all three folks. One was a rabbi one is a therapist on Tiktok and he doesn't lead from his Jewishness, but he is a Jew and the way he and I receive him as a fellow Jew culturally and how he shares his psychology and therapy theme to tic TOCs. And then I think there was another post from someone perhaps on Facebook along these lines, and they all said Similar thing that I can respect but that I also respectfully disagree with or have a different perspective on. And I want to talk about it. And it's super timely. And I think it's very interesting. And to me seeing this three times, and also that it also aligned with some information I've received from my own clergy, at times from a clergy person. And Tracy turns out also has received a similar message. I wanted to talk about this because I think it has all kinds of implications for work that the for the joyous justice work we do with our beloved Jewish community. So here's the statement, it goes something along the lines of, if someone did something to you, if someone if someone hurt you, if someone or a group hurt you, you know, there's a lot of talk about forgiveness and different things. But either someone said from a Jewish clergy perspective, or this other Jew who is talking to a broader audience said it more secularly you are not compelled to forgive that person, you do not have to forgive them, especially specifically, if they do not apologize or take a meaningful accountability for what they have done. You don't actually have to forgive them. That's not something that is on you to do. It's not wrong for you not to forgive them. Right. And I want you to know that you are supported in that. And

Tracie:

forgiveness in the absence of apology is not an obligation from that. That's the message that I was, you know, when you said that I had received the same, that's exactly the way it was was, you know, I was, I was struggling over a person who had I felt injured by and wanting, but not feeling able to forgive that person. And my rabbi was like, yeah, that's not called for they never apologized, they haven't taken any meaningful action, why would you forgive them? Right, and the message,

April Baskin:

right, I got that message too. And I had a similar message in my freshman year of college after I'd gotten pastoral support from my amazing college campus rabbi, around helping me through a family emergency that was in a really meaningful way. And so I went to him a few weeks later, during the hugging in between Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur war. Because there is talk of, of practicing the act of forgiveness in Judaism, when people have taken right action to rectify circumstances. And so I approached him because I similarly had had an experience where the police in my local town had hurt and injured it had beaten a family member of mine. And I was having, again, similarly, I wanted, or I had a sense of that something that I needed to do, but I could not find a way around it. And my beloved rabbi at the time said, you don't have to if they don't apologize, you don't have to, which was both a relief, but I remember then it also didn't feel complete. And I want to talk about this now. Because I have a perspective that I do think aligns with Judaism. And we had a really interesting conversation that I'd love us to partially rehab and then perhaps build upon because I think there was even more we could do, but we kind of paused it, because we had a class to teach. And, and we knew we would unpack it in real time and in a way that we could share with you. Friend listening in. I when I see these themes, and Jason, you're gonna make a point in a moment that I think makes it I appreciated part of what I felt like was the undercurrent of the statement. But I actually think it's insufficient. And I want to say this from a place of not critique of the statements, but just saying, I think, for us as Jews and for all humans, but specifically in the way that this is a Jewish conversation. I think we deserve more than simply staying in a state of lack of forgiveness. And I think in this conversation as Tracy will do in a moment, I want us to add some complexity or maybe even replace that specific word. Because what I've come to learn as I've been diving more deeply into various spiritual practices, whether it be indigenous or Buddhism, other different traditions I've and also deepened my healing as someone who through a lot of different things related to class based oppression, racism, sexism, different themes. I just I want a better alternative. Then, I want I want a third way. I want a middle path. That is not me, just accepting the abuse or the pain that different folks and institutions caused me. And I also don't want to stay stay in a place of ongoing hurt, and lack of healing, whether like if people don't forgive, which is often the case, or don't rectify their situation, I don't want my healing and my growth and my well being in life to be dependent upon other people's capacity to take responsibility for the harm they've caused, right. And so over the years, over the years, I've read multiple different sources in different ways that have helped me find a pathway that is not either of those pieces that helps me get to a place of healing and forgiveness as I define it through my Jewish Interspiritual. Counter oppressive lens that is not about so much the other person, but it is about me being able to move on. And this is not that this is a new conversation. But I want to make this as an as I read these different statements, and then I will Tracy, I want for you to bring in your brilliance. As I read these different statements, I found it in a nuanced way alarming. Because I know that a core part of a forgiveness and or tissue, the process which we'll dive into is healing, and that everyone deserves healing, especially those who've been hurt, whatever, wherever their transgressor is with that, but we as people need healing, and it's an interesting the backstory for me, that was in my mind as, as I was seeing these different statements pop up, which to me says they're making these statements because they're receiving the question that we both have asked or that the people have asked over the years. And and in terms of what all many, nearly all, what all humans experience, the hurts that happen in day to day life, and specifically for Jews, as a people who have been targeted for disruption to as a group of people as Jews, and especially for Jews, as a group of people, as a whole. Collectively, we've experienced collective massive trauma in different ways that are and continue to experience, minor to significant aggression and micro aggressions and oppression that I want something more than you don't have to forgive. Because to me, that alone is not. It can be helpful for certain people in a certain moment, but it also doesn't help people heal and move on. So I'm really excited to unpack this and share what I think is a better or a more thorough alternative or more holistic response. Because what people are saying isn't bad. It's just it's just to me, noticeably incomplete.

Tracie:

One of the factors that feels potentially relevant here is the limitations of language in this in this conversation, right? I think that like, I want a different word that speaks to kind of releasing the anger and hurt without condoning, which I don't know that forgiveness, even as we currently have, it actually says condoning but that is kind of the way that we like in just everyday parlance, we sort of mean like, Oh, it's okay. I don't mind, or it's for the best, or something along those lines that and I

April Baskin:

think you're well and I think here are the ways in which the systemic oppression is so pervasive. So such that when it gets used in the context of different things, and the patterns of denial, there's a way that that and also explicitly that that,

Tracie:

right, especially like when we see like, what what you're just saying right now brings up for me, like, I have had conversations with different people in my life, about the ways in which the zeitgeist society kind of expects, especially black folks to sort of forgive when, in the face of just really horrific, and we pressure and expect and like reward or forgiveness that is sort of superhuman, and like that doesn't allow room for grieving or, or anger or any kind of natural, normal human emotions to having been abused and injured and just go straight to sort of this transcendent forgiveness that just doesn't feel healthy or real. I think when you and I spoke kind of offline about this, I was thinking about the time that my rabbi said this to me, like I just I was beating myself Have up for not being able to forgive. And so when she said that, to me, it's what I needed. Because I was in a place of like sort of self recrimination for not being able to forgive when that's not where I was.

April Baskin:

Same same. And I was dealing with a similar piece in the moment when I asked.

Tracie:

And then the bigger though, the more nuanced those sorts of potential third way, for me in this same exact, you know, same relationship was, when I, I read and actually worked through the exercises in Archbishop Archbishop Desmond Tutu, his book, the book of forgiving, which he wrote with his daughter. And they have a whole bunch of practices like physical embodied practices, like they have you find a rock and like you trace the rock into your journal and you like write out the story. There's a lot of work to like, get at the heart before you're invited to forgive, which I think is exactly what I was just saying. Like, it doesn't expect you to skip from injury to forgiveness,

April Baskin:

there's healing, there's a process. Yeah, yeah, journey.

Tracie:

And one of the things that was really, really powerful for me in the exercises, that art was Archbishop Tutu, and his daughter recommended in this book was to take this rock that is like, smaller than your palm. And actually hold it in your non dominant hand, for like, six or eight hours, like a really, really long time, like go through your day, just holding this rock. And so like, I held it in my left hand, and then I would like use like a pincer grip with just like, one or two fingers on my thumb, so that I could still hold the rock. And then after the period of time has ended, when you put it down, the two twos in fight you to notice sort of, you can feel the you can still feel the presence of that rock, because you were holding it for so long, it's almost like you miss it. And sort of thinking about the ways that we kind of wrap ourselves around the hurt and anger and kind of make it a part of ourselves. So that we miss it, if we are to release it was really, really powerful for me and thinking about this, like, toxic relationship that I had with a with a specific person. And at the end of the whole thing, like the exercise is to actually like speak to the rock as if it's the person. And if it's the case that you cannot repair the relationship, which I believed mine to be, then you sort of talk to the rock, you say, you know, like, I don't think it's okay, but I, I need to move on. And so I'm going to forgive so that I can move on. And then you actually, like, toss it away. So I like took this rock, and I spoke to it as if it were this person who had hurt me. And I said, like, I know that you hurt me because you were hurt. And that doesn't make it okay. But I can't hold on to this anymore. And I kind of tossed it into the woods, this rock. And I'm not saying like that was it? I'm fine. Like, I'm not saying I don't occasionally get triggered when things happen that remind me of the trauma that this person caused. But there wasn't release that going through that process gave me did I think, even though I will never, I have never and will never get an apology from this person. There was a release that I needed and deserve. And I think that release, which is different than the forgiveness that we use, and sort of common parlance of, Oh, it's okay. But is in that direction insofar as I'm no longer carrying that rock and wrapping myself around the hurt. I, I want us to come up with a word that means that that release that I got when I tossed that rock into the woods, after having really sat with it and thought about it and thought about like, what purpose it was serving for me. So that's my like, very physical metaphor for the the new third way that I wish that we had words for

April Baskin:

Yeah. And you know, I want to add in our invite you, Tracy to that there was another piece that you brought up in our conversation about it, which is very true. That part of this I think is especially this whole conversation feels tricky because of the Undo unsurprising and undue influence and impact of Christian hegemony, and how that affects our understandings of language.

Tracie:

Yeah, yeah. And the, the power of I mean language is when you start to think about the effects, I mean, Hebrew has so many fewer words, and so we don't, we don't put so much pressure on a. We put more we put less and more on each individual word because each word in especially in Biblical Hebrew has to serve so many roles. Whereas in English, like we have a very specific, like, it's not just a table, it's a desk, it's not just, you know, like, we have very specific precise words, we switch so many more of them. And, and in the ways that in the ways that Christian cosmology, influences our use of English, and for the word forgiveness, I think that's the sort of jumping to transcendence that I was talking about before that asks us to jump from injury to forgiveness, which is what, at least, I understand that Christ to do on the cross, right, like an even then intercede for us in the Christian understanding. So to be like crisis to forgive in that in a way that doesn't have that. Like, giving voice to the story of what happened, that doesn't have the kind of recognizing all the things that I did with that rock price doesn't get to do all that stuff.

April Baskin:

And I'm curious like, and I don't necessarily even want to get into it here. And I feel like there are scholars who could help us with this, I feel like we could also figure it out amongst our knowledge, but to I think there are ways in which there's part of what Christianity is in its purest, most essential or mystical form. And then there are also the ways that it has been taught over centuries to support to be a useful tool to support oppression and have people to support the economy at different times. And in different ways in this case, you know, for the US with capitalism with enslavement and sort of put certain narratives and a specific slant in us with a specific sort of Midrash and commentary around it that was in service of various disparities and various systemic forms of oppression. And we are neither Christian nor interested in leveraging theology in ways to support and condone oppression. So I think this is especially important and you know, the the words that we thought up that I don't necessarily think are the final answer, but we talked right, you know, we discussed one, when we spoke about this before, and that I'll share now and also, then I just thought of another, the two words that come to mind for me are is a variation on our like, or not a variation, but it's just the classic to shuba, which we think of mostly as repairing damage we've done but in the sense that it means return. And my at least my sense of different harms that I've experienced that always, but often, there's a sense of return that I want to go back to the pre hurt, like I don't want to go back to I've now learned things so I don't want to lose that part. But I want to go back to the me who didn't know that an employer, a partner, a whomever could cause me hurt or could do damage and such in such a way I remember when I was healing a lot. I think I don't want to have to do a trigger warning when I was healing a lot from a significant trauma I endured in college, I, one of the songs I listened to it, I did a lot of mourning around a loss of innocence, that I felt that I felt that something was taken from me that I couldn't get back. Right. And and so to me, there's a way in which the to shuba and it makes sense to me, like in a holistic sense that there are ways that that that that word I think is helpful, helpful, useful word. And, you know, it could be returned that necessarily back to who we were but to return to our, our sense of divinity and will and sovereignty and power and Venus. Yeah. And that Selim Elohim that we are in because often with the heart hurt does to us, is it something that was done to us, but at times we internalize in different ways, the ways that we either were hurt or allowed ourselves to be hurt, but often not allowed, but it happened to us. And so then we question like, Did you know there's a way in which, yeah, we do. I deserve rappel. Yeah. Which of course, we never, we never do. But our brain trying to rationalize something that was irrational was then to try to make it make sense. Right. Right, beyond something awful just happening, right. And so, so to shuba is helpful, but I feel like it's not quite complete, because often it's used also in terms of us doing repair, but there's a way in which to shuba I think that holistically works. And another word that I think that fits in light of what we're saying and what aligns with some of the offerings, you know, with our grounded and growing curriculum that we're now starting to shift into a broader ongoing offering. And we're excited to start building a community and a way to bring in more folks across lines of difference. Another word that I think could be helpful in some ways that comes to mind is another one of my favorites. And I think our favorites, Tracy is Sholom wholeness. Yeah, because how do we how do we access wholeness in light of what's happened in a way that doesn't miss? How do we access wholeness around? Yeah, this and it might be a new wholeness, or it will likely be a re conceiving, which is why I love that you gave that example, I think that there are any number of different rituals and practices people can do the one that the two twos propose, I think, in their book, I think is a may his memory be for a blessing, may the vicious memory be for a blessing is a phenomenal example of one of one way that race might write man and I love that it has the different components to me that are consistently a part that are that is part of the choreography of a journey around this. honouring

Tracie:

of and that's, that's exactly the thing. And yeah, that's exactly what they say that if you can't skip steps, like so they give you a set,

April Baskin:

the steps can look like different things, they can evolve differently. No, you can't skip steps. Yeah, but there's something around speaking the truth of it, acknowledging these different acknowledging the impact for ourselves, right? And and also noticing, in what ways is this? How do we how do we form a new relationship with this with this so that this can mostly be serving us and what is not serving us? We get to release and feel a sense of peace and clear our mind, our heart, our energy body, our energetic, our aura our field, so that it's not weighted down by this and any number of other things. How do we get that healing? And, and so to me, I think, what we want to strive for, and I think it makes sense in light of what we already said, in terms of the systemic oppression in terms of our society, really fighting in terms of there's a number of different systems that directly and indirectly work against healing, because if people got healed, and we're whole, our society could look really different. Yeah, would have access to their power, people wouldn't stand for certain things, people would be able to form different relationships and organize. And so to me, that Sholom piece of what we want is to regain our sense of wholeness. That either was what it was before usually isn't it's a new phone, oh,

Tracie:

yes, a new form of hold, for sure. You know, I'm reminded of, like, 100 episodes ago, in our first Rashanna episode, when we when we first started recording, when I told the story of the Golden Buddha from that I learned from Tara Brach, I'm reminded reminded of that idea of to Shiva. So, so the story is that there's this Buddha that is much beloved, this giant clay, Buddha, much beloved, in a monastery, and for some reason, they need to move it because of work that they're doing on the grounds. And so they bring in a crane to move this, this giant terracotta Buddha, and as they lift it, it starts to crack and everybody's freaking out, and then the, the head guy, the the head monk at the monastery, see something like bright through the cracks, and they stop work. And he goes to look sneak flakes a little bit and they realize that underneath their beloved, terracotta Buddha is actually a solid gold Buddha, or I don't know, if it's all its golden, a golden Buddha, that they didn't realize was gold. I mean, it was beloved as a terracotta Buddha. So they clear it off. And they realized that some centuries before, in order to protect the Buddha, from marauders or you know, whatever invading forces, the predecessors of these monks had covered the statue in mud, so that it wouldn't be stolen. And then everybody who knew what was underneath the terracotta died, maybe they died in the invasion, maybe they just got old, like, who knows, but that secret was lost. And, and so when we talked about it two years ago, right, we talked about the things that we do and the oppression and whatever sort of covering us over and we think that we are, in fact, mud, but we have that gold underneath, which is not to say even that the mud isn't beautiful because this this terracotta Buddha was beloved. But that's that's what I'm thinking about what I'm thinking about, yes to tshuva of whatever this is Shiva and return to Chalene. That is not the same as As the kind of, Oh, that's okay. Forgiveness No. But is something that we deserve to sort of say like, actually that that mud that you put on me, is not me. And I read it because I think that, I mean, for sure for the relationship that I'm specifically thinking of, like, I got a lot of mud thrown at me, this person, and there were times when I believe that that was me that mud that they were throwing, and so being able to be like, yeah, no, I'm not not gonna take that anymore. That's your stuff. That's not my stuff. And finding that to tshuva to what was there before without forgetting? No, yeah. But through, like, through a sense of of wholeness. It's not the perfect metaphor for what you're talking about, about the way that we have we have grown I mean, it's more like No,

April Baskin:

but I like it. I really love it, though. It's feels really resonant. But sorry, go ahead.

Tracie:

Well, I was just, I was thinking about like, like, we have a tree in the yard that had like a little bit of damage, and now is like, the I the arborist was just out having to just be out like last week, and was pointing out to me, like where the tissue is starting to form to like repair the tree, it's is repairing itself from this old storm damage. And it will never be the same. But it is whole and healthy. That So there, I think there's something about that, that is just maybe missing from my golden Buddha metaphor.

April Baskin:

But well, and because yours, because in this case, it's more intense. And I want to say it mindfully, and for people to find it, to use it or think about it in ways that are useful. And if it's not resonant, then I think the metaphor you just gave is really helpful, is what I like about it, that speaks to different things that I believe are a part of what I've been taught Jewishly and also in the context of my years of study within Buddhism, and other mystical, Eastern traditions and indigenous traditions, is what I love about it, which is interesting, and it's pushing me a little bit is, to me, the Golden Buddha piece as part of is the fifth Xlm Elohim. Yeah, and the terracotta can be oppressive patterns, or it can also be other elements of art, or life or life circumstances that are neutral or good. What I like about it is that from a spiritual abroad, widely inclusive spiritual perspective, but not universal, necessarily, that I like about the Golden Buddha story is that we get back to or that part of, and even part of the healing can be as anchoring in that divine and that eternal part of us, that's our spirit, our soul, that that whatever is happening outside doesn't is always there. Yeah, exam that we kind of air all the time. Yeah, and it was there the whole time. And it's part of it, sometimes it's these cracks that help us access it when we feel like things are broken, and we need to fall back or you know, that we we lose the structure, the circumstances that helped us know, who we were or helped us under perceive something in a particular way. And that, that, that that is always there. And, and that from there, what I would add is that perhaps, and that in time, as we are ready, that we don't at times, it would be really wonderful and fantastic. If if a specific person or group of people who damaged the terracotta can be a part of us repairing it. And often, that is not the case. But if whether we want you to just be shine like a golden Buddha and or in our world, we actually want to either repair the terracotta or develop a new terracotta or engage in what's the Japanese practice called with the consew gi if we want to, right if we want to engage in consew Gi and and with ourselves and ideally with one person or with a group of supportive people, whether it's somebody from our community, a support group, counseling, a somatic healer, any number, a traditional therapist, any number of different supports that we can access in our world to do some variation of consew Ghee or saying I was actually stripped of a lot of this and I want some help to get more terracotta or some other material, because I still would like some protection and and I'm going to do this because I want to I want to engage into shuba in return to sovereignty to spiritual sovereignty of having more ownership of my experience and repairing harm that was done and I'd like to feel a sense of wholeness. Yeah. I'm

Tracie:

displaying Kintsugi

April Baskin:

Yes. And then I also want to circle back in a moment to something else we were about the value in what we heard. Before that I wanted to I wanted to add this additional context for what I want to speak. I want to validate so yeah, before we do that,

Tracie:

I token Sookie very briefly as a form of mending, a Japanese form of mending where if a piece of pottery is broken, the glue is glued back together with a specific form of resin that then has gold or precious metal dust put in it, it takes a very long time, it takes weeks or months to do it, right. And instead of hiding the scar, it creates a golden or precious metal scar from where the pottery was broken. And it's absolutely gorgeous. That's, there's my you

April Baskin:

also want to say what the also what there's a little bit of meaning about like how it's perceived that

Tracie:

like wabi sabi, like Kintsugi is like is, is the epitome of wabi sabi, which is beauty and imperfection, which is a Japanese aesthetic. So the sometimes the Kintsugi vessel is perceived and valued to be even more beautiful and more precious than its unbroken version of itself, the pre break version of itself.

April Baskin:

Yeah, and I'm thinking of a few different pieces here that I just want to add in to layer in more meaning. So when I love this, I love this alignment with the Golden Buddha story where that, that it's not just the gold that's inside, but that there is divinity, one might like the metaphor of the consumer of the material with the precious metals, there is love that there's community, whether again, it's with the different pieces we listed out, add a couple more like clergy, whether it's a clergy person with whom or a series of people I love that you mentioned in the piece about the time because that's about the time at times, if not years, that some of these things that we might do it incrementally but that we're moving in the direction of our wholeness in a way that doesn't and that's not to say at times that it is not worth because many times not always, many times it is worth trying to pursue seeing if we can get reconciliation with the source of the harm, but in a range of cases, it's very clear that that either will never happen or is not happening on a timeline that is suitable nor respectful to us. And so I also love the kind of the theme between the Consu gi process and and what that represents metaphorically and the Golden Buddha that it's not just that our spirits that that to me there is divinity in the healing and it is incredibly beautiful. And that beauty as I often like to say at times does not justify or make Okay, the original need for it the breaking right at times a number of people will do that. And and I continue to have a really rigorous internal conversation about this because I also absolutely love where I am and I am deeply appreciative of the lessons I have learned and I still find it that to be healthy to thank abusers or specific times are certain things that were more neutral and I can say that I appreciated that getting that rejection or something like that, but in cases of actual abuse or assault or any number of things a lot of people will say and every that makes everything okay and ultimately in terms of when I die and things like that maybe in like a higher spiritual sense. Sure I can get behind that but on this plane in this life, in a sense of justice a different things I'm not I'm not down. Yeah, I'm not down with that. So I want to make that clear. But that but from our but but to me, all of these things are when we are the star of our healing journey. So it's not about externally or the other person this is us re centering ourselves as the victim and survivor and Victor and courageous person who is partnering with other people to help us in various ways as needed, doing some solo work if we need that, and making something beautiful of something that was painful, as we are ready when we have time, and slowly regaining or steadily or quickly it for us. And sometimes if that's the case, regaining our sense of wholeness. Then the other thing that I wanted to say that I was inspired to say, when you were sharing some of your remarks at the beginning of our conversation, is as we're talking about all of this, I can take a bit of a sigh of relief and recognize that most of these different leaders, clergy and thought leaders who are sharing this thought that they are that they are providing relief and help to folks there is a helpful inter vention in that there, at least initially correcting or affirming that we don't, that a victim does not need to condone, or in a positive, appreciative way, except what? What the harm that was done to them or have a positive orientation toward the person, it might be good in time, either immediately or in time to have a restorative justice perspective and have more analysis around why they did what they did, but it doesn't. So I you know, so I do want to name that there isn't necessarily anything wrong with this perspective, and that it is helpful to provide relief to folks who are feeling pressure to do something they shouldn't have to do. Yeah, my point and the purpose of our conversation. Tracy is for folks for whom it's resonant, if what we're saying isn't resonant to you, you can put it on the shelf or in the trash you choose, or you can put on the shelf for future use if and when you're ready, or or just release it. Right. But it's for folks who either have already been thinking about this or who started have started to have an inkling of, okay, I'm solidly rooted in that forgiving. And there are different ways that I want to advance goals in my life, or that I want to be able to trust new allies or have helpful relationships or, or pursue different things, and I'm struggling with those. And then you may be conscious of this, I find that how I was brought made aware of this was through coaches who'd said forgiveness, and they meant it in the sense of like, how we're describing it, of tissue that and of returning to our own divinity, and also Sholom of wholeness, that of the big things you want to achieve. If you're struggling, I want you to make a list of everyone or different groups or institutions who have hurt you who you have not forgiven. And that this is the if you want to more easily access, joy and advancement in your life. Taking time to do healing around these different pieces and reconciling it will deeply help you in that process. And so I wanted us I'm we are sharing this with you, at least from my perspective. And I think Tracy would agree to say that here's an option for you. If you are wanting to advance something in your life or feel more wholeness and how to do that in a way that doesn't and or never condones harms that were done to you to our peoples to other peoples that there are that it is best to have a holistic truth and reconciliation process when we have been hurt by someone. And often, that isn't an option. And I believe that we still deserve to have a pathway to being able to return to joy and love and the fullness of the human experience and Shalem to a sense of wholeness, and it feels very emotional. For me, you know, I want I want that for you. I want that for us. And so I just wanted to put this out there as an add on as a Midrash as an addition to what I've been seeing shared. Anything else you want to say Tracy?

Tracie:

I guess I'll just say Shana Tova, to April and to to you listening. Happy Shinato

April Baskin:

bah Uber to calm where you have a good and sweet new year Tracy Shazza limit to car beloved friend and listener. Thank you for being with us. And I hope this conversation is helpful. lately. We've been having different people write to us. Feel free to how do they get in touch with us, Tracy?

Tracie:

You can fill out the contact form on on our website, go to joy juice, Rachel justice.com or Joyce justice that comm

April Baskin:

slash podcast you can or slash contact either. Those are three different ways you can reach out to us if there's anything that you want to share or ask us about how this episode is landing because it's a hefty one. And I hope that if also if you find it helpful and you think someone with whom you're speaking would find this helpful, feel free to share it with them. And it is my sincere hope. And I think Tracy would agree with me It is our sincere hope that the As high holiday season is meaningful for you, and that you are able to access either externally or internally, you are able to access the things that you specifically need to feel spiritually and physically nourished this high holiday season and that it is meaningful for you whether you do traditional services. And or sometimes like what I've done either meditating in my home or my favorite is like going to a creek or into the woods. And usually some combo of different themes and connecting with my ancestors and the divine taking time to reflect, look like a lot of different things. But I hope it's a meaningful time for you and that you enter this new year with a sense of sum or a lot up to shuba and show them of returning to your inherent divinity and you feel a sense of wholeness.

Unknown:

Yeah, thanks for tuning in our show's theme music was composed by Elliot hammer. You can find this track and other beats on Instagram at Elliot hammer. If this episode resonated with you, please share it and subscribe. To join the conversation visit us talk racial justice.com where you can send us a question or suggestion, access our show notes and learn more about our team. Take care until next time, and stay humble and keep going