Ep 102: You Can’t Fight Oppression with Oppression

In part inspired by behavior we’ve seen on social media, April and Tracie discuss the importance of recognizing and holding multiple truths, even when some truths are less-than-savory. Western/American society pushes either/or dynamics in many facets of life, including in understanding oppression: we’ve been taught you can be oppressor or oppressed, not both. In truth, nearly all of us are both to different degrees, depending on context, power dynamics, and other factors. Sadly, ignoring this both/and can lead to causing more harm. 

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Transcript

Tracie: 0:00

Sometimes, when we get triggered, we default into patterns of behavior that may have served us in the past. But that doesn't mean they're serving us now. We have a choice, we can get more intentional by slowing down by being self aware. And by being willing to hold multiple truths.

April Baskin: 0:21

This is Jews Talk Racial Justice with April and Tracie,

Tracie: 0:24

a weekly show hosted by April Baskin and Tracie Guy Decker.

April Baskin: 0:28

In a complex world change takes courage.

Tracie: 0:31

Wholehearted relationships can keep us accountable.

April Baskin: 0:34

And we're back. Happy Day Tracie, happy day friend tuning in with us. Hi, hey, hi. So I want to broach a complicated, juicy subject today that recently I had an insight about this. The context for this is that in one of our earlier lessons in our program Grounded and Growing, as we've developed it, which I highly encourage you to sign up for the next iteration of and we're thinking, getting creative about different ways we might do it. But one of the pieces that we talk about is the power and discernment and wisdom that becomes available to us. When we allow ourselves and give ourselves some space to slow down and do a bit of processing. It's important for us as we're navigating oppressive dynamics, to have self awareness. And I noticed at times and what I the reason I'm one of the reasons I'm excited to talk with you about this, Tracy, it's occurring to me is because we've talked about some related themes like right now I'm already kind of thinking about our Passover theme about what if we're Pharaoh? And so in some ways this is a continuation and adding layers of sophistication and analysis on to that question. We have two core models that we teach our students, we have the covered model, which we've already talked about in a prior episode on the podcast, and we also have the Koach model. Kavod means honor and respect and Koach means power and strength. And the corrode model, the honor and respect model is meant to be used when someone is in a difficult dynamic or is experiencing a challenging situation. And they are practicing mindful awareness that they have non target or oppressor or dominant identities in that exchange that are significant, even if they are being mistreated that they are that they because of certain identities, they have foundationally fundamentally at the end of the day, have an upper hand, have a disproportionate oppressive have disproportionate oppressive powers or dynamics on their side. And that the kapow bottle sets up that person to navigate that mindfully to take care of their needs and also address the situation at hand while not abusing or leveraging the oppressive dynamics. And what we recommend in the context of teaching, grounded and growing. Most of our students, not all but most of our students to date are white Ashkenazi Jews. And I recommend and we recommend that almost always that our students generally lean on using the Capote model, because white and or conditional white identity is a powerful dominant force in many circumstances. And then I also well, I'll get to that straightaway. But and then and so then with the Koach model, that is a model where, even if because we all have oppressed and oppressor, elements of our being and identity, we all have different facets of our different identities, and our sociological experience that have us in different ways at different times and sometimes simultaneously experiencing both target and non target encounters or oppressed and oppressor encounters. And the Koach model is for folks who have identities that are that significantly impact their experience in that moment and in general, but in that moment, and more so than the other other dynamics. They are in an oppressed circumstance. So this is especially for folks of color, if someone has a non binary or gender non conforming identity, or identifies as transgender for or, yeah, if a person is very young if they're in a room of elders. And so this, the course we teach is obviously for older folks, but where they're where they're where there is some power dynamic that is substantially different. And not only that exchange, but in general, in the experience, that person consistently experiences marginalization, right, not march, not momentary marginalization, but chronic in how their how their job and or their experience in the communities received, what they are included more and more often excluded from, right. So that's some kind of general context. And also to kind of round out to balance out what I said about a vote for the coop model. It's a more in depth model, because when you are being targeted, there are a number of different factors, you have to weigh in safety, what is at stake, how are you weighing things? How can you record different things? Can you look for allies, it has some it has a similar starting point of anchoring your in your breath and noticing that you've been triggered. But then the course of action is very different, because it accounts for the fact that there's more at stake, and ends with also noticing that there may be more reinforcement needed to account for systemic oppression in a way that, for instance, and so the example that I often give in class that I think is interesting for folks, so I often in many situations in the US usually engage in the Koach model to help me navigate conflict and challenge because I'm often navigating as a woman of color, with learning differences, different things with different socioeconomic status and certain folks, but when I'm in Senegal, my US or American identity is very potent, and powerful and relevant. So most of the time when I'm in Senegal, even when I am being targeted, I apply the Kavod model, because I am aware that maybe it's not likely, but it is the fact that it is even possible as an appropriate that if I got upset enough at somebody, I could take a course of action that could have them lose their livelihood. And that is disproportionate to power it is not appropriate and as a result of American colonialism and imperialism. And that is something that I never want to leverage, even as I'm navigating a painful situation, say like with a physician who, and I actually even said this in class, Tracy, but I was thinking about it the other day, and I was remembering, I was experiencing it mostly as sexism. But I think in part as I debriefed it later, in my mind, I think which is still not appropriate. And he was rude and mean to me, but I think in part, he was bringing up his bitterness, about light skinned people about America about different about entitlement, because he kept saying things that weren't me when I thought about them. In retrospect, he was he was projecting onto he had clearly had different experiences with people who look like me or who have circumstances in my life who have hurt him, which doesn't make it okay that he hurt me, but also certainly means that I don't want to right, leverage that to hurt him in any way. So, so that's some broader context here to set the stage. And if folks have questions, feel free to follow up and our usual place on our website at joyousjustice.com under the podcast section, and or if you're on Tik Tok, which I know a number of you are, hey, tick tock peeps, you can also comment, or send me a message there too, with any follow up questions about anything we just shared. Or if you want to know more about Grounded and Growing and you're like, ooh, this sounds amazing. That was just the tip of the iceberg. You might want to go sign up on our waitlist for a sign up to be on our waitlist. For one, we're going to be rolling out the next cohort. It is an incredible program. So really all of that. Yeah. So as we were teaching that lesson and getting into some of the questions around it, and going into the particulars of it, most of the students in the program are really thoughtful, so there wasn't resistant, so they weren't so there wasn't resistance. But I know in general, I noticed that a lot of white Ashkenazi Jews frequently endeavor to do something like they they take on their there's a way in which in certain parts of their living, that they're not, I don't think consciously aware of some have started to become aware of it. They often have, they often live their life as a non target person and or have an oppressor identity and accessing privilege and doing different things. But when they experience marginalization, basically what I'm trying to say here is when they experience marginalization, they go into what they think is a full on marginalized person response. But what's fascinating to me and this makes perfect logical sense because most white Ashkenazi Jews in the United States are positioned in this interstitial middle agent role, when often, often like isn't the majority of the time outside of folks who have done a lot of work around this or for other reasons, have more awareness, when Jews go to advocate for themselves and stand up in the context of marginalization, particularly across lines of difference, but also just sort of generally, they also marbled all throughout those actions have different oppressor dominant patterns at play, that I think they're not aware of that for other folks who have a predominance like black folks or others who have a predominant target identity that is heavily influencing their lived experience in the United States don't do those things. And I see Jews doing things that they think are similar, but they don't notice the added power they have and the harm, the undermining that it might do to their message around their claims of marginalization, which often some of the specific elements of marginalization are accurate, but they're doing it in oppressive ways by talking over people by by belittling or undermining other groups by treating something that again, I would put out lower on the oppression scale as though it's higher on the oppression scale and calling for more stringent punishment. Do you want to add some nuance of perspective here, Tracie?

Tracie: 11:36

I think some of the other behaviors that I would put in the same category would be kind of reducing the relationship to transactions. Yes. You know, like, you can't, I'm not gonna say this, unless you say that kind of a thing, often around Israel. But not always. And there's also a many other things

April Baskin: 12:01

that's a really good one.

Tracie: 12:03

There's also a, um, I'm not sure exactly how to articulate it, but I've, I've seen it as it's related to that transactional thing, but almost like a, like a wanting to sort of be one and done set it and forget it. And I did that thing. And now I'm good. Like, which is, I think, related. It's adjacent. You know, it's quick, it's cookie seeking. But it's, it's not just that, I think there's also a piece of like, a little bit of like privilege or entitlement like, like I can expectation of having to do less work like well, I did this was such a difficult thing. It's so amazing that I did this thing that I'm supposed to be doing regularly. But now that I've done it, once it's sufficient, this might not be the only this time it might be where you are going. But to me there's a way in which some of that stuff where I find people at times with other different identities are in it, who are on the bottom end of an impressive dynamic know full well that do we one thing, one that don't have any expectation? Yeah, that if they don't show up and do the work that they will get more for less contribution? Yeah. And I think regarding specifically the thing you're talking about, about the target non target, what I'm thinking about is, there seems to be a pattern, which obviously is useful, but not universal. So but there seems to be a pattern where there's this sense, which feels like you know, white dominant culture influence of like, there's there is an identity in terms of not targeting on target, which is unchanging. And so there's this, like, there's this weight of this targeting that happened, and that and it doesn't change like it is. It is set in stone and that is who I am. As context doesn't then change

April Baskin: 14:03

and access all of the other sources of privilege don't

Tracie: 14:07

What does not say beyond that those things that that the historic trauma isn't true. It's about there's not either but then But then the the indignation

April Baskin: 14:19

yes immense indignation

Tracie: 14:22

that that that one would try to nuance that that's the pattern of that feels because it because it is an either or is why I'm naming it as white dominant white supremacist culture that that there's this either or, and this is and how dare you suggest that I'm other than.

April Baskin: 14:39

And here's the thing. Here's the paradoxical or that like the interesting dynamic about it frequently at times white Ashkenazi Jews claim marginal marginalization and the added times literally either the broader context or the ways they are doing it are oppressive and it gets called out. Jews engage in further oppressor pattern behavior and deny it outright or dismiss those people. And then which bend further adds to their marginalization because they are damaging relationships with potential partners. And my big thing about this for my beloved Jews that I've been saying to myself, and also at times to my colleagues, for years, as we were working on different press releases, and I was very alarmed at times when I would see blatant misinformation that was being proposed or at times was shared in different op eds, or pieces being written that would say things like, a times would also would deny facts about say certain things that were happening with Israel/Palestine, or certain things that white Ashkenazi Jews had done engaged in, in America, like so an example of this would be Jews denying that not all, but a number of Jews not being willing to hear and outright denying and attacking folks say, like me, for instance, who has connection whose family worked on the plantation of a Jewish former slave master. There's a whole interesting story about that, that I think we've talked about before that my there's like a, you know, a meaningful connection. And my family used to have a different last name, and they dropped that last name and adopted this last name. So there's all kinds of nuance there. But a lot of Jews will deny or call people, antisemitic at times, even fellow Jews. And there's just nuance that's needed here. And my so what I was trying to say, and then I got into some of the specifics. Overall, Jews, like any other group of people, like every other human community, and especially in alignment with other communities that have been targeted for destruction, are profoundly and unconditionally worthy of protection, and love. And, and I don't always think this is conscious, and sometimes it is, and we don't have to lie. And it actually undermines us, when we are not willing to tell the nuanced story of our experience. To me, a simple comparison that feels really relevant, is I very much embody, and own all of the different facets of being a Black African heritage woman. And in many contexts and how I navigate through the world, I also fully owned, that I am lighter skinned than many Black people. And that that in a number of ways, it's it's fascinating to me how much it hasn't helped my experience. But in a lot of ways, I also have avoided higher levels of violence, it is vastly impacted my life. And I hold both. And in certain situations, in many situations around specifically the ways that antiblackness is levied at folks, and the wanting to claim the fullness of my heritage, I both fully own that. And when I'm in spaces, for instance, with other Black folks, I often shut my mouth a lot more and let give them the floor, if they have lived different experiences as me and then I navigate that at times if I'm like, oh, there are other dynamics, or we see antisemitism potentially playing out, which doesn't happen often, but can happen. I know a lot of people have this big thing about Black antisemitism, I'm not trying to feed into that. But again, I'm also not trying to deny it either, and having a nuanced, robust perspective. And so there is an opportunity here and I know that there's likely more training and healing and different things that are needed because another element of this I think, in part why juice and I'm gonna get deep here. I know we already are. But I think why Jews lean on this simplistic narrative and the oppressive patterns is in part driven by the fact that they are not yet resourced well enough to access and heal their unhealed collective trauma. And so paradoxically, it's actually what's partially keeping in play. Place is on the surface and significantly the oppressor patterns that they've been indoctrinated with from their middle agent role and having access to different oppressive institutions and generally being able to act navigate them with ease, as compared to other folks with other identities who literally had to fight tooth and nail to stay in them. Like I had to fight tooth and nail and work super hard. And I had a couple semesters where I almost didn't finish it finished school because I couldn't pay my way through. Right. So very different experience, and moments of racism and anti semitism and all those things happen, right? I'm going all over the place a little bit, but there's so much to say here, but it's good. We're just unpacking that symbol. In a Twitter exchange recently I shared a I mean a tic tok exchange, I shared a video that was talking about how Jews have never been fully classified as other in the ways that black folks or indigenous folks have and a bunch of people fascinatingly, a bunch of white Ashkenazi Jews, perhaps some mixed heritage wrote in about how Jews experienced housing discrimination, which felt a little bit like Jewish white splain-, like it felt like a little bit like white Jewish splaining to me, like I know that, and also sort of missed the core point of what she said, and I think part of what is driving that is unhealed. So like the surface is oppressor patterns, but what part of what's driving that conditioning around the oppressor patterns is unhealed pain. Because my perspective is overall, most of the groups that I work in and move in spaces that I'm in people appreciate sincerity, and honesty and self awareness. And this is also part of why Jews experience challenge movement spaces because our story a lot of white Ashkenazi Jews, stories aren't compelling because they haven't worked through their own stuff. So they're just like, I just care about stuff. And people are like, what doesn't make sense as opposed to having a story around? Here's been my family's journey. And we've experienced a number of benefits from the society and we've also been terrorized. And so because of this, I am deeply committed to this cause most of it and I can make it more compelling interpret things, but many white Ashkenazi Jews aren't in touch with any of that. And so this unhealed trauma ends up having white Ashkenazi Jews hyper focus on the marginalization without noticing all the different ways that they have oppressor or oppressive patterns, that when they are scared, come out and hurt other people. And all of this none of this negates the fact that Jews are worthy of profound love and protection and safety. But it undermines we we undermine our own efforts, when we don't get healing and training and support about around how to effectively address and shift some of these patterns and begin to collectively more intentionally work on some of those root hurts and start to face the unfaithful and heal them. Instead of having projecting that unhealed pain, through oppressor patterns while claiming marginalization on to would be allies, and also folks across lines of difference who are more targeted than we are often in day to day life in US society.

Tracie: 22:46

One of the things that came up as you were going through all that, well only reinforce and agree with what you were saying in terms of the in the healing. Because I think part of what happens part of the pattern that I see happen is that either or binary from outside groups being applied or is perceived to be applied to a Jewish person or a Jewish group. And then like pushing back, well, no, I'm not that thing. I'm the other thing. And so, but I think that you're exactly right, that if we can get right within and know who we are, and get the healing, we can be like, hang on, this is true. But this is also true. And we can hold both truths rather than accepting the binary because I think that that, that binary it comes when it's pushed from both directions, you know, whether those those who are saying no, you're an oppressor and

April Baskin: 23:57

and I think our lack of healing is what makes us susceptible to it. Because groups like with black folks where it's more explicit in different ways, a lot of Black folks still have internalized oppression, but aren't as susceptible to some of that, because we've taken time to process and face and share family stories and do different things when they when it comes at us we can push back but because of that lack of healing, it's it's it's like

Tracie: 24:23

it's like a healing and it's also the specific survival mechanism of using proximity to whiteness as a survival strategy, because part of doing that is accept partial rules of whiteness. And the either or is one of the roles of of whiteness. And so yeah, I think there's it's, it's all of those

April Baskin: 24:45

well said. Yeah, yeah, well said. I mean, things interestingly, that actually brings up some interest that just like both aligns with alright what's already been said and also like, that's part of my point of great and I'm aware that if because part of it So the healing pieces that often subconscious terror is constantly running. So it keeps a number of Jews from being able to see what is actually as you begin healing are being able to ground and center your nervous system. You can see that this just makes sense. And what I find people argue with or say are things that are on unrelated. Like, yeah, like, Jews don't know Jews experience like no shit the Jewish Tiktok or who made the original Tiktok didn't say that Jews didn't experience discrimination. That wasn't the point. She was distinguishing and making clear about some of the specificity of the Jewish experience as opposed to black folks and I experienced a number of Jews writing and I both got it on like and I'm what I'm starting to experience is I've done enough healing that I kind of have a dual experience where I'm able to embody and come from where they're coming from, and then as a black person, and as a black Jewish person. I'm feeling hurt by this. Like, a lot of my family couldn't get homes. So you saying that right now in the context of what you just taught is distasteful. It is misplaced one you're not responding to anything we just said. What this original because it's a duet for those who don't know it to on Tik Tok at times, you can, quote unquote duet a video where you where they show the original video and then your reaction to it or responding in different ways. And so I did that with this Tiktoker's video. And and it just felt disheartening in that moment. And that was to me was an oppressor pattern of an oppressor pattern is not to listen. And it's to say what you want to say and talk over. And in the comments. I felt like they were talking over this nuanced insight and saying, oh, but we had this experience. And I was like, you realize that most like nearly all Black GIs didn't get home loans. But I get angry, like, so that part of me gets angry. And so and that doesn't deny the negate the truth of your experience. But but you are theoretic, like in terms of thought forms, like intellectually stepping on our necks to talk about your pain when there are a bunch of people who experienced worse. And I know it's likely coming from the horrific trauma you're carrying. But I need y'all to be self aware. Because for whatever the reason is, you're still playing out an oppressor of unhelpful. At best, it's unhelpful. And it's catharsis that is misplaced. And it's just a repeating of a trope. So it's not even really healing you who is that helping? And it's just blatantly, and they can't even see it, because they're in their own stuff. It just, it just was like, and in some ways that ultimately doesn't matter that specific moment, but part of why it was draining for me is because it was a microcosm of what I see playing out throughout the Jewish community regularly a pattern that keeps our community stunted, and incapable of evolving in ways that with a bit of healing and a bit of intervention, our community could be doing a range of exciting, vibrant things that would be supporting us building stronger allies and having a vibrant future. And so it's not so the part of is that it's hurtful to me. And it's also y'all do this regularly. And it's not a good look for you, like part of me also gets upset. Back to the other perspective, like part of me is understanding. And part of me is also like you realize someone looking in from the outside would look at you and see you as pitying yourself and also not rationally logically responding to to this video, which to me, again, my trauma head on is a sign that likely there's unhealed trauma, because when there is unhealed trauma and pain, people don't respond rationally because they haven't moved through that energy that is in their system and consciousness. Yeah.

Tracie: 29:07

So um, you know, what occurs to me is that we started this talking about the Kavod and Koach models as sort of things that we teach for folks when they get, I mean, effectively when they get triggered. And what's really what's really coming up for me is the fact that in both cases, like reconnecting with the breath and kind of like, doing what we can to kind of see past the trigger, or see past a kind of heightened fear, the fight flight fawn freeze, impulse is is key to both and that yes, ultimate I think that's that lack of space to actually make choices rather than just default. fight flight freeze fawn is at the core of the patterns that we're talking about right now is that people act in their terror or whatever has been triggered, and then fall into survival patterns, which for many white, Ashkenazi Jews tend to be, as I, as I articulated a little earlier, that survival pattern of conforming to whiteness and white standards, which is not an effective strategy for working across lines of difference.

April Baskin: 30:45

And what's interesting about it, too, is that it further exacerbates and causes the pattern to continue. Because that alienates potential would be allies. Right, and confuses some other folks. And also to the in some of the folks who are their oppressors. Also it it just kind of plays into the pattern they're hoping for, where it sets us up to be the perfect

Tracie: 31:13

scapegoat. Yes, right. Exactly. Where they're leveraging

April Baskin: 31:17

these oppressor dynamics don't have access to all of the oppression but are still leveraging some of them while complaining about being a victim. And it's, it's really a distasteful look, but then also to perpetuate, it leads to the perpetuation of Jews doing it because it's not going to ever meet your need, it's not going to meet our needs, because people aren't going to want to connect with us, when we are claiming. expressed either explicitly at times claiming or acting as though we are experiencing more marginalization than many people who experience much more marginalization than our community does in the United States, and doesn't get our needs met, because we are alienating. We have patterns, oppressor patterns that alienate people from supporting us, which causes more pain, which causes people to double down on this pattern and it is not working, right, we need to slow down, stop and begin practicing other things. That and the nice thing about the commode model is it helps to get our needs met without causing harm, and moves in the direction of a more virtuous healing, empowered cycle of advocating for our needs, while also recognizing that there are many groups, we have substantial benefits above, even as we are also targeted by horrifying, terrible things, but also a lot of other folks are also navigating those more frequently in day to day life.

Tracie: 32:48

Yeah, or even if it's I mean, it doesn't matter if we're using power over to advocate for our, you know, for correcting marginalization, it's a fundamental, oxy oxymoron.

April Baskin: 33:02

What doesn't matter? Right? To use power? I just said doesn't matter. No, no, no,

Tracie: 33:07

the what? Like how the how frequent? Like the I think the frequency, like if

April Baskin: 33:15

if of the marginalization right, if

Tracie: 33:17

an Jew individual who feels that they actually are experiencing antisemitism on the regular every day, using power over to try and make that point. It doesn't work. It's so

April Baskin: 33:31

it's back to it's back to Audre Lorde, the Masters tools.

Tracie: 33:35

Right. So that that was what I meant. I just meant, like the actual frequency, if we're using power over as a tool to try and alleviate it is not going to

April Baskin: 33:47

Yeah, it's part of our lack of our misperception of certain dynamics, goes back to not not addressing and healing what it is that that's what keeps something big and disproportionate in anyone's life. And so that's in part why Tracie and I have developed, Grounded & Growing and why continue to think of different strategies and in Grounded and Growing we don't directly engage in trauma healing, but what we've done is created a system that is deeply trauma informed, that enables incremental healing and deeper awareness to be cultivated and to steadily build momentum and position someone well to further and more skillfully identify what are the specific echoes of trauma that are manifesting in your life so that you can then be more prepared and more informed as you access deeper levels of healing. And also, as Tracie knows, and different participants and our alumni know I'm also hoping to cultivate and build an ever growing cohort of folks who have this analysis so we can also bring more minds in to this and start to think about what because I think it's going to take a variety of things like, for instance, Tracie, you are on a more intense journey around this. And I'm on my own journey around it too, which I think it's fun around mindfully, and increasingly contradicting the internalized oppression that we have as Jews around detaching from our bodies in different ways. And it manifests differently for us. And for me, part of what this trauma healing looks like at times is some of the traditional ways that people think of trauma healing, and part of it is around mindfully and skillfully contradicting elements of whiteness, and just engaging and engaging in more embodied practices like movement and dance, and exercise and engaging our bodies, because communities that aren't as proximate to whiteness, have a number of more elements of, of embodiment, just woven into their spirituality into their day to day living that builds in consciously and not different forms of release and healing that are woven into the very nature of how they work, how they pray, how they do different things. And so I'm excited to have a cadre of folks from a diversity of perspectives, because the insights that we teach, in grounded and growing have many potential different applications that I'm excited to bring to our people because I continue to believe that Jews have a distinctive role to play in Tikkun Olam and a core part of the work I've been doing and that Tracie and I have partnered in, amazingly, over the past couple years, is providing trainings and resources to help us and resourcing our people to help do that better, and to help heal and resolve and address the different glitches that show up so that we can be more well and vibrant, and that we can be as effective as we can in engaging in Sector dove and pursuit in pursuing justice. Yay. So I'm really curious, I would love for folks to message us to send feedback about how this episode landed with you if you have any questions, or if the sparks an idea for you because to me, this pattern plays out in lots of different places. And we haven't gotten into it just starting now that I'm crystal clear that this is what happens. I'm starting to think about based upon what I already know and other elements of what we already teach, or what are effective antidotes to this but a core part of being able to address it is starting to notice it. So I would love for you to just think and send it to me energetically and or actually send us something saying like do you see this playing out or if you don't quite yet I invite you to look for it. And start noticing particularly on social media or in different meetings and key moments if you can start to identify some of these different things playing out. Thanks for tuning in. Our shows theme music was composed by Elliot Hammer. You can find this track and other beats on Instagram at @elliothammer. If this episode resonated with you, please share it and subscribe. To join the conversation visit jewstalkracialjustice.com where you can send us a question or suggestion, access our show notes and learn more about our team. Take care until next time and stay humble and keep going.