In our 100th episode, we dig into the holiday of Tish B’Av, the ninth of Av, and its commemoration of the Jewish people’s collective trauma and grief. April and Tracie interrogate the intellectual and embodied grief processing inherited in Tish B’Av, and talk about what resonates and what just doesn’t. Plus, we’re taking this opportunity to celebrate our 100th episode and all the magic and amazing conversation from the past two years (and more importantly, YOU, our dear listeners!)
Check out our offerings and join one of our programs! https://joyousjustice.com/courses
Find April’s TikTok videos here: https://www.tiktok.com/@aprilavivabaskin
Follow us on Instagram (@joyous.justice), Twitter, (@JoyousJustice), or Facebook (www.facebook.com/joyousjustice365)
Find April and Tracie's full bios and submit topic suggestions for the show at www.JewsTalkRacialJustice.com
Learn more about Joyous Justice and join our mailing list: https://joyousjustice.com/
Support the work our Jewish Black & Cherokee woman-led vision for collective liberation here: https://joyousjustice.com/support-our-work
In our 100th episode, we dig into the holiday of Tish B’Av, the ninth of Av, and its commemoration of the Jewish people’s collective trauma and grief. April and Tracie interrogate the intellectual and embodied grief processing inherited in Tish B’Av, and talk about what resonates and what just doesn’t. Plus, we’re taking this opportunity to celebrate our 100th episode and all the magic and amazing conversation from the past two years (and more importantly, YOU, our dear listeners!)
Check out our offerings and join one of our programs! https://joyousjustice.com/courses
Find April’s TikTok videos here: https://www.tiktok.com/@aprilavivabaskin
Follow us on Instagram (@joyous.justice), Twitter, (@JoyousJustice), or Facebook (www.facebook.com/joyousjustice365)
Find April and Tracie's full bios and submit topic suggestions for the show at www.JewsTalkRacialJustice.com
Learn more about Joyous Justice and join our mailing list: https://joyousjustice.com/
Support the work our Jewish Black & Cherokee woman-led vision for collective liberation here: https://joyousjustice.com/support-our-work
In this our 100th episode, we dig into a conversation about the holiday of tissue of the ninth of of and its commemoration of the Jewish people's collective trauma and grief.
April Baskin:This is Jews talk racial justice with April and Tracy,
Tracie:a weekly show hosted by April Baskin and Tracy guy Decker.
April Baskin:in a complex world change takes courage, wholehearted relationships
Tracie:can keep us accountable.
April Baskin:Hi, Tracy. April. Hi, friend listening in. We're so glad that you're here. Do you know what this episode is? Maybe you saw when you tuned in? Maybe you didn't. But it is our what? What episode is this Tracy?
Tracie:Number 100.
April Baskin:already produced them, and we made it to 100 baby, oh man. And boy, has it been a journey. For reals. And we're also getting pretty close, which makes perfect sense, we should be about two weeks out precisely from our two year anniversary, or four weeks out, I guess, from our two year anniversary since we launched so this is just a lovely, special time. I want to especially thank you listener who has been listening from the beginning and or very early on. Thank you so much for joining us for sharing our podcasts for weaving, the perspective and analysis that we share into your life and leadership. And also much love to you newer slash newest listener who is just joining us for the first time on this episode or in the last few weeks, a couple months, we're so glad to have you on this journey with us. And I think it would be nice for us to share some of the things some highlights either some memories and or favorite episodes, or just themes in general, or at your attributes about about the podcast that we've loved and appreciated to date that would be worth just naming and acknowledging. And also, as we're sharing some of these things, if you have any ideas, wonderful, lovely listener about things that you have particularly enjoyed, I welcome you to either share this episode and or visit iTunes and leave us a review. That'd be really awesome. We have a few great ones, but we haven't solicited them in a while. And so as you're listening to either some of these reflections we share, and or some of the juicy content we're going to dive into this week, and it sparks some appreciation for you. We would so appreciate if you stopped by and gave us a review and shared some of what you most appreciate about us talk racial justice with April and Tracy. So I think one of the things that comes to mind for me, so the the first and obvious one is just about our rapport and connection. And all of the ways that that has been a wonderful enriching element of my life over the past two years. Yeah, amen. Right. So there's that part, I think, but I think beyond that, because in some ways that's both sacred and treasured and kind of obvious, something that might be a little less obvious, that is really meaningful. And I think in some ways, I take it a little bit for granted, but it's sacred and rare, is that since it's self produced, one of the things I love about us talk racial justice, is that it's not censored. Is that there's no mainstream institutional publication organizational media room where folks say Tracee when you told that story, I think I think it would be better if you told a milder story or April so that was really brave, but I wonder if you could have tried to think what are some of the things I've heard in the past? Because I want to make it heavy handed I want to make it very realistic. Could you not mention ISRAEL PALESTINE? Could you whatever it might be? I can't think of examples right now. Can I see how my brain works? I'm only been them on the receiving end.
Tracie:Right, please. Right. Right. The ones while the ones that I have heard that from from different iterations were like, I don't know though. Is it good for the Jews to be talking about this Is it good for the Jews? Tracy? That's that's the question that, like, always sort of stops me in my tracks because I'm like,
April Baskin:what? Yeah. I mean, really? I thought so since I said it.
Tracie:It was good for this shoe. Yeah, get that. That one, that one comes a lot. I have heard that one a lot in my, like, main mainstream Jewish circles when we were talking about what exhibits we might do for the museum. We were talking about, like, how hard to win, I was pushing hard to follow the lead of black and brown Jews and others who you know, in the in the wake of George Floyd's murder, like, is it good for the Jews? Which I I think the thing that bothers me the most about this question is that the person asking always thinks they know the answer, as if they are the arbiter of what's good for the Jews. Which that I think that's, that's the thing that bothers me the most about it.
April Baskin:Yeah, yeah. And so I really appreciate that we've created, I think, a pretty nuanced, balanced container that has elements of courage and honesty, and deep compassion and love and the different engaged perspectives that we both bring from different vantage points in conversations. And that we've done that a range of different times around a variety of different subjects some more easeful such as holidays, sometimes we integrate easeful with complex concepts, like I really loved the piece we did this year, over around the time of Pesach. About another that this is original, but looking at it through our unique distinctive lens. It's not original, but it's also not very common about what if, what if, in different cases, we are the Egyptians? How do we? How do we think about the story, right, like, asking these questions, and doing so with a sense of freedom and confidence, and also a deep commitment to integrity and responsibility around the impact and implications of our words and analysis? Are there any reflections that you want to share? Tracy either related to what I said or on along a different thread?
Tracie:I mean, it's not unrelated, though, it's not precisely what you're saying. But I think one of the things that I really love about the way that we approach things beyond just, you know, the rapport, that we love one another, but it is the way that we are able to learn from one another and even sometimes disagree without it being about who's right. You know, I feel like, you nuance my thinking, and sometimes I'm able to nuance your thinking as well, without being like, no, no, you're wrong, but just be like, Hmm, what about this piece of it? And then we're able to, like, kind of chew on it together as a collaborative conversation, as opposed to as opposed to the ways that we were taught out in the world to have these conversations, which was what are commonplace patterns that show up that are very commonplace that are this about persuading, or sometimes just steamrolling over the other person? To prove that you are right, I don't think there's any of that happening. When you and I talk even when we are completely in alignment,
April Baskin:agreed, yeah, totally. That resonates deeply with me, Tracy and I think part of it is because it is comes from emanates from us having an understanding of deep respect for one another and understanding and appreciating and holding an awareness of the multiplicity, the reality of a multiplicity of human experiences. And basically having a neutral and or warm reception to difference and not making difference wrong and not having the thought error where difference implies that you think I am wrong, because that's what happens in these exchanges where there's a difference of opinion and then people either for likely attempts, probably from lack of competence or any number of different things project onto that person that in addition to their perspective, they're also a scarce scarcity mindset mindset that there can only be one And if that person is articulating their thoughts, well, the person feeling danger, and we just don't go down that
Tracie:path completely related, or maybe a different way to say that is that there's there often is a competition aspect, exactly what I'm saying, Yeah, that's a different word for it. But there's no, there's no competition between us. And, and because I'm much more interested in in a greater deeper understanding and analysis than I am investing anyone, right. And so I think that that, you know, having us both come in with that attitude, rather than trying to, you know, be the best well, and
April Baskin:and the one that points out what we've talked about before on the show app and feel like you bring it up, but I think I brought it up to or aligned around this is to, there's less competition in the context of having a growth mindset that we're not in a place of being fixed. And we understand as you already said, that we're a dynamic people with dynamic analyses that are continually evolving and adjusting and shifting. And in that context, there's not a need, there's also not a need for as much competition because we get to be flexible, and there's a lot more we could say here. And I think that's good for now, because I'm kind of eager to transition into some of the theme of what we wanted to talk about today. Okay, cool. And which is that we are coming up on in a matter of days, by the time this is published, Teesha but above. And, and then shortly after that a week later, we have to have coming up to like with the way your brain works, you can do that more effectively than I can
Tracie:happy to do so thank you, so to speak, which literally means the ninth above, which is the the Hebrew month we are currently in, is associated with all of the tragedies that have befallen the Jewish people. So it is the date on which the First Temple was destroyed. It is the date on which the Second Temple was destroyed. It said, among some that it is the date on which the final solution was articulated for the first time in Nazi Germany. So the decision to actually exterminate Jews is also associated with Jewish five. And there are many others. Those are sort of like the ones that stick out. But it it is sort of like the terrible no good, very bad day in the Jewish calendar. So it is a day for mourning, and lamentation, and soul searching. And just and there's a there's a fast. So it is it is a deep day where we we sort of pile all of our communal and intergenerational trauma onto that day to be recognized. How's that for
April Baskin:amazing? That was great, great, I was going to start to go into theoretical, that was perfect. I was going to go into theory land with it. And yeah, and so we talked about we've brought significant trauma informed analysis to many of our episodes. And I really want to talk about it and accentuate it today in a very specific sort of way in terms of going broad view around my sense of what is needed for Jewish liberation, thriving and healing and an advancement of our people and people's, the different peoples that make up our Jewish people. In a way that is something that is healing and feels true and inspiring for us while also being accountable to not only ourselves, but the world within which we live and more specifically, folks who are as and or more marginalized than we are. My very real sense is Jews like a range of other people and specifically it takes on specific permutations and manifestations for the Jewish people. My sense is, in terms of we were talking about the positive elements of what we love about our podcast and what Tracy and I have cultivated and share with each other. And to me, one of if not the core reason why those are achievements that are more difficult for our broader community is because we have yet to get, get receive and or marshal the deeper support we need to To more significantly address and heal from our collective trauma and, and so, we're going to focus as I said before on tissue of this episode, but I think what's what I'm thinking right now, and I might change my thought in a day or a couple of months, is that I could sum up to me the, the experience of the Jewish people could be tidally, wrapped up in a three part bow, of what it what is held within tissues of what Tuba of represents around love and sharing love, and our pursuit of justice, our pursuit of tissue via the Tikun of, of returning to our divinity, of engaging in apologizing for things we have been a part of, or taking account for the ways we are complicit in oppression. And also engaging in Tikun in healing ourselves and the broader world engaging in tikun olam of making this world a better place. To me that, and obviously there's so much more to say. But that is one way that I would describe the Ark of the Jewish people to date is an immense immense adversity and trauma over 1000s of years, us in spite of that building a gorgeous, robust, beautiful set of cultures, and, and communities all over the globe that are filled with love and artistry and joy. And being committed to consistently helping our neighbor and bettering the societies and broader communities within which we live not only for ourselves, but for the betterment of everyone and wanting to coexist peacefully in partnership with our fellow Jews, as well as our neighbors and not needing them to shift but actually really believing from my bias, Jewish perspective, believing in a healing that enables us to be who we are and enables other folks with whom we are in relationship and helping to be who they are. And to be able to articulate that and for our service simply to be supporting them in their becoming as they in their community see it as helpful, as opposed to other societies or certain religious or spiritual communities that have oppressive elements around needing everyone to be like them in order to be worthy of healing and love.
Tracie:Yeah, so to have the middle of your tripartite bow to the 15th above is a holiday that I was completely unaware of until probably, I don't know, maybe 10 years ago. Same. Yeah, so and
April Baskin:I don't even think 10 years ago for me, I think it was, yeah, maybe six or five years ago for me back to
Tracie:you're going to the museum. So somewhere in the last, yeah, six to 10 years. So to have was described to me initially as the Hebrew Valentine's Day, which is not I know, like, I hate describing holidays in that way. And also, my birthday is Valentine's Day. And so there was a little like, it does resonate with for me personally, even though I choose General. I do not like saying that, you know, right. Like, I hate it when people describe iconic as the Jewish Christmas. Exactly. I hate that. No, it just it just was just no erases difference and nuance
April Baskin:about other things. Yeah. Where I
Tracie:was going with this, where I was going with this before I get distracted by my birthday is that I think it's really interesting that two of which is a celebration of love relationships, is less than a full week after two suave, right? So we have the ninth of November 15 above. And there's something that feels really significant to me, since we are a culture that thinks in weeks, you know, six days and Shabbat six days on Shabbat over and over and over again. These two are within six days. I mean, I don't know that they're in the same week. But but even like in that period of creation within the time that it took to create. They are both they're both Located and there's something that feels really significant and resonant with the point you are making about the three points. Like I feel like what's in between is that tissue van Tikun between those two, if those are two bookends on a week on a week this is not a fully formed thought, because it's just yeah, I'm with you processing as we're talking. But there's something really significant and juicy, we'd love to continue to kind of unpack what that would mean if if acknowledging and lamenting our trauma as at the beginning. And love is at the end, then to shuba and Tikun are in the middle, I think
April Baskin:and it's perfect. And it's perfect for me in the context of how I think about and understand. Deep decolonized trauma healing around a core element of trauma healing is remember our inherent good and remembering our inherent goodness. And as we unpack traumas, or different things that happening happened to us, having counselors in different supports, who remind us of that, goodness, goodness, and help us reprogram and release the pain and shame and suffering most humans carry that is really not theirs to carry. It's around particularly in childhood, and also at other points in the context of oppression and other abusive dynamics where someone else was hurt. And they hurt us because of that. But our brains, especially when we're young, and even when we're older, it's hard for us to it doesn't make sense, like violence and abuse is illogical. And so it makes sense that our brain would try our brains will try to make sense. And usually it falls on us. And so to have that first step being to shuba of returning back to our inherent divinity, and then reconciling engaging in repair around pushing that forward in the context of all of this messaging and ingrained neural pathways that made us wrong for what happened. Yeah. You wanted to say something? Yeah.
Tracie:No, I mean, the, the way that the holiday has been given to us, there's a lot of commentary that says that each of these horrible moments of collective trauma where in some sense, the Jews fault for having done something, to disobey or Yeah, like, there's lots of commentary around to survive. That. I mean, that's part of,
April Baskin:and that's so that's interesting, like we could even like that's an interesting lens, because in general, even if even if I think certain things happen to folks or to myself, that there's a consequence of something that happened, this concept of fault. i It feels paid, it feels oppressive to me. And I find that there are a number of mystical and spiritual beliefs and practices I engage in that other people don't. And the reason that they often give is because they think it's about fault finding. And these different practices I engage in, whether it's around energy healing, or different things are considered doing thought work to shift my experience is not from a place of blame. Or, to me, it just reminds me of the carceral system. And again, and it was just what you were saying back to that, that thought element that like that thought error of, I need some reason. And it's a logical first thought to make to make something slightly less painful to say, Oh, I must, they must have I must have done something to warrant to warrant this. And I'm not saying opposed to that thought. But I, I also just want to share and push back around. Like even if our people did take a course of action that did contribute to that being a consequence, like there's something about the fault implying, potentially that we deserved. When we deserved mistreatment and destruction and violence. I generally think much of the time almost always unless it's done mindfully and lovingly, and in the healing capacity, which these things weren't, is not coming from a healthy.
Tracie:This is one of those moments from our tradition, where I so deeply appreciate Mordecai Kaplan's instruction, so the founder of the Reconstructionist movement, who told us that we we must give the past a voice but we don't need to give it a veto And that's because what you are reacting to it's built into the Jewish tradition. Our sages are different, you know, commentators along the way rabbinic commentators along the way have certainly said that, in fact, in the night in the 20th century, there were those among the what is now the Orthodox community who said that the show was because of reform. So there's
April Baskin:always a reformed Jews. When you see reform, I want to make sure that I understood what you were saying.
Tracie:Yes. So that particular picture of the Divine that is required, in order to make that kind of a statement does not resonate for me. I'm, I'm willing to say like, Okay, I heard you but no, not not taking that. Not taking. Yeah. And in fact that reading those comments, when I was in grad school, I study the early reform movement. And so reading those commentators who could say that we lost 6 million because God was mad about reform, that that actually felt like a thing that one could say out loud, was part of my saying, like, Yeah, I'm not. I know.
April Baskin:Yeah. And there's depths of this, that I'm not ready to share publicly, because I've done a lot of thinking about like about these elements, as I consider these spiritual principles and stuff. But what I will say right now is that that's just not my perception. I don't like I think, you know, when it continues to evolve, but my spiritual metaphysical understanding of things is that God does not intercede in that way, and smite people like that, like this is where our community is thinking, and it just doesn't feel good in my body. I don't know what it looks like. And I'm not saying that I am recommending this for folks right now. But this sort of thinking, to me, there has very limited value. And people, our community needs to find time and spaces to wail, to wail and cry, and sob, and all of this ideating like, and I'm not saying it doesn't have any value, right. But there's a way in which that is not healing. It's an element of healing. And I think I've named this before and I want to talk about it more and potentially build out programs or collaborate, have us collaborate with different folks, Tracy in terms of some of our other joys, justice work. In society, in general, and definitely in our community we mistake. conceptualizing of trauma, the same as healing from trauma and conceptualizing of it or discussing it is part is an element of the healing. But blaming and pointing fingers. At the end of the day, we like any other person, like any other child, or any other person, who has been inhumane has been dehumanized and targeted, deserves to be held and cherished. And say, this is inconceivable. It was inconceivable. And I am so sorry, this happened? And how can I hold you and support you? And how can we create a container within which you get to fall apart, and process and cry and sob, about how inconceivable This is about all of the ways in your community and your family, and the people who are closest to you who you love, the way you see the shards of that trauma showing up in the brokenness and elements of the relationship, and then the relationships in your life. Right. And there's just a way in which there's something about it that feels not exclusively but deeply patriarchal, and oppressive and not helpful. Right like that, though, to accuse and to engage in blame. Like, to me, it's like the equivalent, like, let's just take it out of this scenario and put it into another context. Right? For some folks or sages to say that everyone, all of the black folks who were kidnapped and dragged into the transatlantic slave trade and into slavery that they some way does it like it's just absurd. It's just a absolutely absurd event, and I will share some of it now, even as I've been getting into the greater metaphysical depths of noticing and looking through my own living and in different stories and contexts. Of certain behaviors or ways of thinking that contribute in terms of the context of understanding, both metaphysically. And also sociologically in terms of deepening my understanding and understanding of oppressor patterns, and oppressed patterns. And the belief as Barbara love teaches, like, if you have two pegs holding up a table, there's the oppressor behaviors that maintain the oppression. And there's also the internalized oppressor patterns that hate that maintain it, but not from a place of blame. So in some ways, is even as I'm talking about, there might be something to that a little bit. But what I would say is that likely the people who are saying that there were other Jews and other folks too, who also experienced this. So it's a, it's a, it's still lands, even if there is some shard or shred of relevance in it, it's still, we still don't want to get into the fact that anyone ever deserved this, or that it wasn't any way that dehumanization is ever in any situation justified. Do you want to dive in here because I feel like there's like five different paths that I can go down here. And I think I've opened up a bunch
Tracie:of name that I think it's really interesting, like, what you're talking about sort of the container and the chance to whale and just like, just hat like, honor it and be held. I feel like heels up has not pitched but I've has the potential to be that container. Because the whole a lot of the actual ritual around it is about lamentation, and grief, and expressing that grief. And so I think that's the I find that really interesting that both the less healthy and the more healthy relation manifestations like, they coexist, which feels so relevant to just friggin like life. Yeah. That's how life works total, that the dysfunction and function kind of are constantly, you know,
April Baskin:and in my mind, right present, and it's through my paradigm, and through my visioning what I'm thinking, and ideally, people through a variety of different means are getting enough, are getting increasingly more nourishment and support and healing, and empowerment and education such that that shifts more and more, that's been the experience in my life of continually striving and still having that dynamic, right, instead of staying in the stuck place of an A, and being able to nourish and feel ourselves. So my sense is, there's just an abundance I want, I think, to me, I hold like this is a world view that there's actually a lot more good than bad that people are inherently good. And so despite all of the dysfunction, and just with the natural world alone, even with all the pollution that our world is immense and just overflowing, essentially, like setting the oppression aside, it's gone. And then it's gone. It's the Garden of Eden like the all of the flowers blooming and the bees buzzing and our oceans and the weather and all of these amazing things, right. So that is happening, right. And part of why I'm able to access joy and also rebound more quickly is because even as I'm experiencing different things, I think I might have mentioned this on the podcast before my shorthand for it is babies ie also brilliant leaders and amazing healers are being born right now, flowers are blooming, birds are singing somewhere in this world, though. And also times they include and there are brilliant movement leaders like I'm experiencing a defeat or pain right now. And there are brilliant organizers and changemakers all over the world who are connecting with each other right now, even as I'm experiencing this thing. And that keeps me from going to a lower place that I could like those I know, rationally, those things are happening even as I'm feeling like, it's all over, right. So back on track here with the t shirt of what I want. Or like what I want or what the idea that's coming to mind right now is that T Shirt off would become a checkpoint day would become a day to check in to remember these different things and would be the time to say how has our journey been, like you know, where we're a couple months out or so from the High Holidays, and, and that ideally in our community and over time and in the world in general, beyond just our community, we would have a plethora Middle School vocab word, we would have a huge robust variety of easily and more increasingly accessible decolonized healing modalities that we would be engaging with daily and weekly and monthly because the collective trauma and the trauma even just from our own lives in the context of systemic oppression, let alone the intergenerational and collective trauma is immense, so immense that one time a year is nowhere near sufficient. If we just did it one time a year, and this is often what keeps people from engaging, in more strategic organized trauma healing work is because the mountain of all of it combined is way too much for anybody or even a whole community to take on, all at once, right? And so to me teach about, ideally, building off of your idea, and I had a similar thought, but like, if I was still trying to tinker with it would be like, okay, it would be acknowledging what's happened, and what's the journey we've been on for the year and based upon the healing that we've gotten? How can we honor these things and also heal from the more in the coming year that would be like, like, I'm envisioning, like maps being rolled out or like, assessments or different ways that we've measured different things and check it, and obviously doesn't make sense to me that like, whatever, like, it could be more clear. It doesn't have to be that clinical, it could be more listening circles and sharing different things of what's been going well this year, and how we feel more free from the sorrow and also still, where's it showing up in our living? And what of that feels worthwhile? And just, we just want to hold on to one of that, could we use support around releasing?
Tracie:That's really interesting. So excited to hear what you have to say. I was thinking along the same lines, so definitely, please,
April Baskin:because what I'm saying I don't think I actually want a different perspective. And also what I'm saying I don't think it's quite that it's something it's something that
Tracie:Well, I think there's also there's also, I think part of my where I'm coming at it differently is also just in the different ways, different comfort levels that you and I have with expressing big emotions. Yes. Right. Like he's bringing his heart and he's thinking, like, when I was a, I don't know if I was in college or grad school, but I was a young adult, and like, worry was taking over my life. And I remember my mom who is so wise. Like, I as I start to like, give like, Oh, my mom told me to do this. And my mom's, then people are like, wow, that's really good. My mom is really good. And one of the things she told me to do was like, tres, it's okay. Why don't you set a timer for 20 minutes, and just worry your heart out. Just just, like, worst case, scenario it and get it out of your system in those 20 minutes, and then you can move on. And I don't do this on the regular, but that is exactly what I needed back then those 20 Some years ago. But I'm thinking a little bit about like, as someone who has a hard time because of the way I've been socialized and maybe a little because of my personality. It's hard to it's hard to tell what's nature and what's nurture. It's not easy for me to allow myself to feel big emotions, especially big negative emotions, right? And so the idea that I could say like, okay, but on on Twitch, right, exactly, not only is it allowed, but it is encouraged, like that's my 20 minute timer for me to feel that, you know, it's a 24 hour actually five hour timer for me to feel all those feelings which I have not allowed myself to feel about my own things but also about the things that are sitting back there in history or the the ones that I named and all the others, right, from my people and from all peoples. And to your point that one day is not enough. I agree question and also and, but also from where I stand where I am right now. Like I don't know how much more I could take given how hard it is for me to do. And so what I'm thinking actually is that in the world to come in Olam Haba we don't need to shut up anymore. Yeah, no radical not because we've not because we've forgotten those things. But because we've healed from this and we are able to just feel the feelings when we need to feel them and move on. Right so there we don't need that 20 minute timer that my mom offered me for worry because we're able to just feel them release them and move on. So that's where I went while you were talking from my like very like straight laced.
April Baskin:So I have two thoughts I want to socialize then also out of water starting or Senate most recent what you most said and then going back to another point is and for me and I totally agree with you, but I want to achieve that in my lifetime. To me it's not about Olam Haba I want to figure out because to me this is like what is keeping it like this is the magic bullet. Not that there is an actual Oedipal but this is like oppression is not bigger than us people think it is but oppression actually lives in different people. And to Barbara loves point as we heal from internalized oppression. A number of these things are going to greatly lose their power right a huge part of it is how we can conformed to it, because of our conditioning. And again, not that we, again, not blame, these were things that were put on to us, right the ways that we were programmed and conditioned. But through healing, and nourishment and different resourcing, we can show up differently and make different choices. Right. Then the other thing that I wanted to say to your point, which I also agree with about all of it that the way that we are living right now, and it's I actually like that there is a marker to acknowledge what the truth of the trauma and oppression that are people has experienced, I think that is useful to have Teesha have. And I think it needs to be buttressed and supported by work year round, around this where it's taken down into bite size, portions that similar but doesn't have to be exactly the same with what different elements of my decolonized counter oppressive trauma healing looks like, right where I have a couple calls a week with trauma peer counselors, and in the mornings now lately for the last couple of weeks now, and it's getting integrated as I do meditation. And at times while I'm doing meditation of I feel stuff emerging in my body, I've been learning different somatic techniques, and I also engage in somatic trauma release, while I'm continuing to do my breathing. And at times, and much of the time when it's somatic. I'm not even conscious about what it is, which is actually kind of great. I don't I'm not remembering the specific incident, my body is surfacing trauma that it's been holding on to that it now feel safe enough to let go up and let me shake or do other things, right. And what I'm what as you were talking about the one day thing, and in one of the books I read, I can find, I can look it up later, it was like not a it was it was it was a book that was helpful for me to talk to about different habits and things. There was a story in it about taking daily imperfect action. And, and a case study where this professor gave a he decided to do a test and he like split half his class and one half of the class, they could do whatever they wanted during this semester, and they would just be graded on their final photograph. It was a photography class. And the other half had to take a photo every day, and then had to select one of the photos they took every day. From from that right. And as you can guess where this is going, the folks who had to take a photo everyday, the caliber of the one photo they chose was wildly better. Sometimes I wonder if this is true, because it kind of stinks for the students who weren't set up for success in that way. And one of them too. But but when they put all when they were just in that thinking space, which is this is a great parallel for what I was trying to say earlier about healing and trauma work, is that when we put it all and we put it all in one container in our ideating and talking about it here and there and doing an occasional thing as opposed to just doing something that is embodied and you know, brings relief noticing I'm feeling anxiety it can I daily take Can I start with what's happening in this moment? And can I bring myself relief? Okay, I'm having memories come up, can I get support around this. And that looks like a lot of different things. I want to access any number of modalities traditional, earth based, not traditional otherwise, that can help us with that, and breaking it down into smaller bits and parts such that when we come to teach Bob, it can be a moment of overall reflection and like stop a milestone around. Whoa, they're these different things. I've really been doing deep work around this. Do I want to keep on that path? Or do I want to look at this element I've been really focusing on my journey do I want to focus my attention on supporting other elements of my community and continuing to heal?
Tracie:That what I wanted to continue to pull on and bring back to some of the resonance is that there's a fast associated with tissue of which is a an embodied. Great point. Now it's legislated. But it's an embodied form of of expressing grief in this case. And there are those two what we were talking about before there are those who see it as you know, afflicting oneself in the form of penitent penance, which is a way of Christian talking about it, but in the same way we do for Yom Kippur war. But ultimately, in my mind, it's always been a fast of emptying as a club to have a tournament. It was just really, um, I hadn't, I hadn't sort of like articulated that nuance even to myself until we are having this conversation but I'm thinking about like, what you're talking about about the somatic and the different ways of processing through your body some of the things as well, so if you didn't know Some listeners, you know, now I am recovering from COVID. And so I had to take, I mean, I have great coworkers and a great boss who were like, just rest stop working. And I'm glad that they did. And I did rest. And I didn't do my regular exercise routine, because that just wasn't happening. And I found that as I was starting to feel better, I had this restlessness that was mind body and spirit, like this, just like, were like, I just felt yucky. I don't have like, there's my articulate this, that I just, I just felt out of sorts. And I felt it as like a tightness in my chest, and a fogginess in my thinking, and just like a restlessness in my soul almost. And it was because I hadn't moved my body in six days. And I'm, anyway, I'm, I'm not even 100% sure where I'm going with this, except that I, I love what you're saying about the importance of the body, and the mind and the spirit and how they're all tied in doing this healing work. And I like it that the container we have been given for tissue of for grieving also contains the embodied practice whether or not I choose to make it an actual fast from food. If you know for however, I decided to use to spa this year, which now I'm going to put a lot of thought into next week. I like the idea that our, our ancestors, ancestors And our predecessors have, you know, acknowledged on this day of lamentation and grief, there is work for the body to do, in addition to the spirit and the mind and that so that I'm like, I'm kind of glomming on to
April Baskin:the last couple pieces that I would add, before we draw this episode to a close is that super resonates. And again, I'm not into the punishment model at all, I just don't think it's helpful in general. And so in terms of analysis of certain things, so fasting for me, and also someone who engages in daily fasting, where I mostly eat one meal a day, and I hydrate throughout the day and take different vitamins and stuff that there's release involved in that when you're not giving an input and you're just releasing, right, there's a clearing that happens of our system, and it also allows our different organs to rest and repair, have more time to repair and heal. And the other thing that I would notice, as you were saying, this, just I'm just noticing different things that are part of the digestive tract, goes through the hip and sacral chakra. And that's a core place where trauma is held, or is in the hips and chakra. So I also like how the overlap the overlay of, of fasting involves, involves several of those passes through that area and zone of appealing. And then the other piece that I wanted to add is a very personal share that you know, I had this huge spiritual breakthrough. In November, Tracy, you know, we're around the time of my grandma's approaching passing where I was meditating three to four hours a day. And what I've recently realized and I, I've been meditating, and or a wannabe meditator or a constantly lapsed meditator since my sophomore, sophomore freshman year in college. So almost 20 years now, and and I noticed I'm just gonna go full woo for a second here. I've been learning about human design and for another day, but I'm, I'm a mental projector. And one of the elements of my being is that all of my chakras are open from the neck down, and I receive energy. And so I was just recently realizing as I've been ascending and meditating over the past few days, that's why when I was with groups of experienced meditators, I had these euphoric experiences because I could tap into their energy flow. But when I was alone, while I still love the idea, and I did get some relief out of it, I couldn't do it for long, and I had time approaching it. And I've just recently realized, which is this huge thing that I keep saying it over and over again, when you're struggling with something? And it's sometimes it's slightly more complicated, but almost always, it's because there's either unhealed trauma and or you need help with it. Right. And I just recently realized that through a specific modality that I learned through Dawson church, this science meditation researcher, where he has guided meditations that involve EFT freedom to add that involve tapping. And as I started to do that, and do it for an extended period, I started burping a lot, which in different modalities is associated either with relaxation and or the release of terror and I and fear internalized fear. And actually think those are intertwined that as your body relaxes, it can release, terror, stuck terror in the body. And so all of this to say I've become a much more effective meditator as I've started to do different somatic release pieces. And so I just wanted to share that insight that I thought that, that, that for folks, if you haven't resonated with meditation, and there are lots of people in my life, for whom traditional meditation doesn't work, if it's something that you want to explore, or some other similar piece you might want to look into. I like tick tock and different creators and somatic practitioners on tick tock, because they make little videos where they teach you some of these core things that have been hard for me to access. Right. I know, it's funny, right, but it's true. I didn't say it before, because I was embarrassed to say it, but it's true. I've found different somatic practitioners who have made who have demystified and made certain things readily available. And as I'm doing that, I'm getting even more released, in addition to my more verbal and emotionally emotive trauma, healing modalities. And yeah, so I wanted to share that as you're talking in terms of embodiment, that, that the embodied piece, and this is coming up for me in multiple themes. Now, last year was a big theme around my brain health from meditation, diet, getting omega three. And right now, the big theme, one of the big themes is around even more embodying my healing. And so when you say that about I really love what you highlighted, basically, about fasting and having an embodied component. And so I would invite you, beloved listener, one, just to thank you for listening to this point, we love you so much. And also to say that, for you to consider too, as Tracy modelled that she would, and I align with that, too. Whether it's nourishing yourself and or engaging vigorously, and some athletic activity, if that brings you life or doing something in between just engaging in play or creation, on tissue of might you consider, or just doing a traditional fast or somewhere in between? What's an embodied practice you might do, or you may consider these things. And earlier, I didn't mean to imply that, obviously, we need to have great analysis around this, but when we have analysis at the exclusion, of allowing ourselves to feel some of our feelings and in time, ideally more of them with support and with community and partnership, and havruta. And or, and also to explore embodied an embodied experience with this. Are there certain clothes that you want to wear? Are there certain ways you want to touch your body? or have somebody else touch your body? Do you want to access if you're in a place where you can access more hugs on that day, you know, engage in touch and healthy conceptual ways? That's, that's the invitation.
Tracie:Yeah, I'm gonna say this, please. Again, I'm gonna reflect this back for the way that I'm pleased about it, just in case it's helpful. I am going to be thinking about how I can access the technology that is my body to help me feel my feelings. To help me more fully feel my feelings, acknowledge them and just let them exist instead of pushing them down as I often feel,
April Baskin:or like witness or acknowledge right as a first step.
Tracie:Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Just letting letting them be. Because usually, I am wanting to have feelings about my feelings, and say, I shouldn't be feeling such in such a way and try and stop feeling such as such a way which is how not nearly
April Baskin:Yeah,
Tracie:yeah, I think we all do that. And I for 1am, looking for ways to do less of that, and forgive myself and just witness and be. So I'm gonna look for ways my body can help support that happening
April Baskin:as our motion for to add it in. Because why not? Because I'm just more and more clear that our emotion and our capacity to manage and acknowledge our emotions is a huge potential source of power. It's not just about healing. On the other side of that healing is the more we have capacity to feel these different things and or access certain energy flows throughout our system, which is our feelings or in our emotions. The more power and courage and resilience we have access to. And incrementally even if we do this just little bits at a time, the more we get to regain elements of our thinking and our humanity that have been in a chronic state of pain and or frozenness from the trauma that hasn't been able to be healed, and the more we start to gain elasticity literally in our brain and in our being, the better the stronger and the more fulfilled we can be. And the more space we will have for love. Much love y'all see you for tuba have. Thanks for tuning in our show's theme music was composed by Elliot hammer. You can find this track and other beats on Instagram at Elliott hammer. If this episode resonated with you, please share it and subscribe. To join the conversation, visit us talk racial justice.com where you can send us a question or suggestion, access our show notes and learn more about our team. Take care until next time and stay humble and keep going