As we approach Passover 5782, we’re thinking about the tension inherent in commemorating a moment of acute urgency with practices that require a lot of time, intention, and planning. The Passover story contains multiple moments when our ancestors and predecessors displayed both faith and radical imagination, but when ritual becomes rigid, it can limit beliefs and imagination. April and Tracie investigate how we can use the Passover holiday, ritual, and greater awareness, to nurture and apply our own radical imagination toward liberation.
Learn more about Grounded & Growing or apply for the intensive here: https://joyous-justice.mykajabi.com/grounded-and-growing
Check out our discussion/reflection questions for this episode: https://joyousjustice.com/blog/jews-talk-racial-justice-ep-82
Find April and Tracie's full bios and submit topic suggestions for the show at www.JewsTalkRacialJustice.com
Learn more about Joyous Justice where April is the founding and fabulous (!) director, and Tracie is a senior partner: https://joyousjustice.com/
Support the work our Jewish Black & Native woman-led vision for collective liberation here: https://joyousjustice.com/support-our-work
Learn more about the Midrash about Nachshon: https://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/2199147/jewish/Nachshon-ben-Aminadav-The-Man-Who-Jumped-Into-the-Sea.htm
Read more about the history of the four-minute mile: https://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/first-four-minute-mile
Learn about the Ko’ach Fellowship: https://joyousjustice.com/koach-fellowship
As we approach Passover 5782, we’re thinking about the tension inherent in commemorating a moment of acute urgency with practices that require a lot of time, intention, and planning. The Passover story contains multiple moments when our ancestors and predecessors displayed both faith and radical imagination, but when ritual becomes rigid, it can limit beliefs and imagination. April and Tracie investigate how we can use the Passover holiday, ritual, and greater awareness, to nurture and apply our own radical imagination toward liberation.
Learn more about Grounded & Growing or apply for the intensive here: https://joyous-justice.mykajabi.com/grounded-and-growing
Check out our discussion/reflection questions for this episode: https://joyousjustice.com/blog/jews-talk-racial-justice-ep-82
Find April and Tracie's full bios and submit topic suggestions for the show at www.JewsTalkRacialJustice.com
Learn more about Joyous Justice where April is the founding and fabulous (!) director, and Tracie is a senior partner: https://joyousjustice.com/
Support the work our Jewish Black & Native woman-led vision for collective liberation here: https://joyousjustice.com/support-our-work
Learn more about the Midrash about Nachshon: https://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/2199147/jewish/Nachshon-ben-Aminadav-The-Man-Who-Jumped-Into-the-Sea.htm
Read more about the history of the four-minute mile: https://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/first-four-minute-mile
Learn about the Ko’ach Fellowship: https://joyousjustice.com/koach-fellowship
- [Tracie] As we approach Passover. We're thinking about the radical imagination that is, and has been required for liberation. How we can nurture those liberatory dreams and what gets in the way.
- [April] This is Jews Talk Racial Justice with April and Tracie. A weekly show hosted by April Baskin and Tracie Guy-Decker. In a complex world change takes courage. Wholehearted relationships can keep us accountable.
- So one thing I'm thinking about Passover this year that, I don't know if this is new to me exactly, but it does feel like it's sharpened, if you will, is the historic moment, the moment of the trauma required a great deal of urgency, right. Like there wasn't time to do anything. The reenactment of that moment requires a great deal of preparation and time, right. Like we start cleaning the cha, weeks before and preparing ourselves for the moment. And like, in many homes, American Ashkenazi homes. It's not Passover if there's not a brisket, which specifically takes like hours and hours and hours to prepare, not my home, 'cause I don't eat beef, but growing up for sure, that was the way.
- Yeah, for conscious eating, and all it's many forms.
- And I have read about some specific groups. I wanna say it was an Ethiopian practice though I did not research it so I may be getting that wrong. But some practices where actually during the week of Passover, you only eat meals that you can prepare in 30 min or less and there's feeling it like meant to be like to sort of reenact that urgency. But what I'm thinking about in the way that like my family's tradition have done it and the way that many, many, many Ashkenazi Jews in particular is that I think the sharpening for me is the effect of trauma and the way that sort of singular in some ways urgent moment of trauma generations and generations ago now has all of these things built up around it as ways to remember, protect from, reenact, process, figure out how to heal from, you know, our ancestors certainly weren't reclining, right. Like, so there's all of this, like work now around that singular moment and thinking about it as trauma and then trauma response passed down. That's the piece that feels a little bit sharpened for me this year.
- So I'm thinking, I'm bouncing off of what you're saying in different ways than you might anticipate. So one, there's an interesting, so thank you for opening this up and also just to pull back for a second and say, hi everybody so glad you're here. And so glad you're tuning into this episode and Tracie and I have decided to, and we may or may not next week too, but start to even early because we both really cherish Passover it's definitely one of my favorite. If one of like my, it's hard to pick one, but it's high up there for me. And, it's also just part of why I love it is that it is replete with meaning and symbolism. And so given that it's so intimately proximate to a lot of the themes that are important to us at joyous justice around liberation and peoplehood and moving from narrow places to expansive places and what we believe is possible for us and our peoples, we wanted to dive in. Okay, so back to what you were saying, Tracie, so it's interesting to me because I wouldn't necessarily, I don't disagree with you, but to me, the bigger trauma. So it was an acute moment that was traumatic and intense but to me it's it like the bigger trauma, you know, or I didn't typically think of that moment as traumatic. Because to me it was a release from the enslavement. Which so still, so trauma is still happening and it's acute, I agree with you that it's an acute moment and it's after generations of trauma and beating and dehumanization and sons being killed-
- That's an important point, yes, I agree, you're right.
- And though, but I think also too, even with our oppressors in that moment, likely seeing, but it still was, so I'm like not fully agreeing with you, but also agreeing with you because I also think that for various people and as a number of specialists talk about trauma affects people in different ways. But if we are believing that the story is real, which I'm still not sure that it is, but either whether or not it actually happened or not different rabbis debate, it still is a profoundly archetypal story for our people and for humanity and also, and it mirrors a definitively known story in my African lineage. So, whether or not, so if I'm in the story and I'm thinking about these folks, there is trauma in that moment too, just even around the plagues and seeing their oppressors who are also humans losing the death of their firstborn son, seeing these different things happening that especially if their experience was anything like that of today, which it likely was, in the context of internalized oppression, many people to vary, one just because of our existing humanity. And also potentially because of those who internalized oppression still have compassion for our oppressors. And the fear, the excite, and this just to me was likely a mix of feelings of terror and fear around the potential to have hope. Like, 'cause I'm guessing there was, you know, so actually to me, there's, it's like there's a lot there in-
- It's like terror in triumph. Like I think that's the bit that I was missing in my first description, because there it is triumph. It's not just, hence the reclining now-
- Or the potential for triumph. And also triumph that there is even potential because that hadn't been a thing. And to me in a lot of ways. I think that moment actually I just suspect Tracie that we could be in that moment now, or in a few years for like, we might actually be in a moment like that now and we don't even know it where we're actually, where it's not as explicit. Like we are free like that hasn't been said, but I often, and I don't wanna go too far down this path right now. I mean, partly I do, but you know, I wanna try to be thoughtful about where people are and their attention listening. But so to me, I actually think that that moment is actually quite powerful and worth unpacking around all of the things and the speed with which they needed to move and potentially not being sure if it was even fully real, right. Like having to go through the, because they were now having to in real time, and in part, this is actually the case to me, for why magical, radical imagination and magical thinking about a potential future that doesn't match the reality is so important to me because, one it sets us up to be working toward it and because whether it's biblical or movement wise or like random chaos theory, there are moments in history where something opens, but if our minds aren't ready to believe it, right, because to this point, like in this story, in the biblical story, they had signs for days or weeks or whatever, where they heard this leader and maybe they had different thoughts about, but then they saw it wasn't hurting them as much, but they saw the frogs, they saw or they had external validation. And still likely there was still potentially, I don't know if this is actually happening, but I'm just gonna move forward into the unknown. I potentially risk my life because if it's not actually happening while they're charging at us, they could slaughter us or, and, or-
- Right, right-
- And this could be even worse.
- Well, there's that Midrash about Nachshon entering the water that like, so we're not the first to think about this, like fear and hope and radical imagination. So the Midrash about Nachshon says that at the sea it wasn't parting. And so Nachshon started to walk into the water and he walked into his knees and nothing happened and to his thighs and to his belly and not until it got like to his nose, did the water actually split. And the Midrash definitely implies that it is because of his faith, and actually his tribe went with him depending on how you read it. But it was because of his and their faith that the sea was able to be split, which I think is really interesting, just the story, the narrative, but also the historiography, like whatever time that Midrash was written, those folks who were studying the Torah and being like, wow, that must have been really, how did that even hap like, what did it take? And at that moment, our ancestors, the sages were saying like, it took faith and radical imagination that even though this has never happened before, I believe that it can and will, I think there's something-
- I'm seeing the impossible. And I actually this is so helpful for me right now, I'll be right, because, and I'm curious if it's also helpful for others, because I find, even though we feel like something is so unique, often there are similar threads for other people is because I feel in my own experience right now, like essentially as I'm hearing you say this, that I'm being called into, and I'm curious about the different, like the feminist perspective in the Midrash around like Nachshon versus Miriam and timbrels and Debbie Friedman's Jewish feminism piece. And so I'm also holding both of those pieces and I've never taken time to sit down and be curious about. Like, I love the verb queering, and this isn't quite right here, but like the intent, like what is the, but either way, so I like to bring up our Prophetess Miriam in the mix here and the imagery of her jamming out whether or not that's literally in the leadership or not, but believing in feminine leadership that may or may not have been officially recorded in the annals of Jewish writings. But back on track with what I was saying. So with Nachshon like that, I'm appreciating that because that's what I'm feeling called to do right now. And, I think a number of us are in a variety of ways. And so what is it at like, what are the thoughts? What are the practices and thoughts that enable us to submerge ourselves profoundly in belief, in the face of things that are not affirming that truth.
- Right And also for me, part of what it is that I feel very intimately familiar with Nachshon or proximate to what I could guess in my mind. Nachshon was thinking of like, "yes, I'm going to believe in this and I ain't got no other choice. So I'm not just gonna stand here and die." Like, and it's interesting because in some ways I don't wanna be extreme and negative when I'm trying to teach people things, but I'm like, I've thought through these different things and the alternative stinks. So I think this is both strategic and to me it's the only way forward, is to believe in something better than what is currently in front of us and to anchor in that and move in that direction. So see there's just, it's just, so there's-
- Two quotes are coming up for me, or one's not a quote, a story and a quote.
- Yeah, let's hear it.
- The quote is Nelson Mandela, right. It always seems impossible until it is done.
- Yes, thank you.
- Which is I actually it's on a, like a painting that I have in my daughter's room. I don't know if you saw it when you were here, but-
- I think I do, I'm being like-
- So that's a Nelson quote.
- That's the reason why I love y'all.
- And then the other thing is the thing that you and I talked about, the story that you and I talked about before we actually hit record, which is the 1954 breaking the four minute mile barrier, which it was believed in from, for at least a decade-
- Long time, yeah.
- Like at least a decade, maybe longer that the human body was incapable of running a mile-
- Scientific impossibility.
- Yeah, people thought that the runner's heart would explode if they were able to run that fast. And then in 1954, Sir Roger Banister broke the four minute mile. Against all of the conventional wisdom, not just about the heart would explode, but also like it was a cold day, the track was wet, it wasn't a huge meet, it was like a small meet. And the conventional wisdom had that, it had to be perfect, it had to be 68 degrees. It had to be dry clay track, and had to be a huge meet so that the cheering would spur the runner on.
- All the circumstance, yeah.
- So none of the circumstances were right and he beat the four minute mile. And then in the 12 months after that, dozens of people beat the four minute mile, three in a single race a few months later. So that really like, that story illustrates the truth of Nelson Mandela's quote that it seems impossible until it is done. And once we know it's possible, you know, all kinds of runners are running four-- better than four minute miles. So not this runner, I can just put that out there. I'm about not even trying.
- I'm sure I could if I, but I think that's just more work than I-
- Not interested in that I want work, yeah. But not because it's possible. It's because that is not how I would spend my time.
- It doesn't spark joy in our bodies.
- But anyway, I'm thinking about sort of the constellation of these thoughts and beliefs and limiting beliefs and radical imagination and practices and relating them to Passover, but obviously also to the world in which we currently live.
- And here's what I'm thinking of. Here's where it makes me want to go, is to take a moment together to devise a new Passover tradition. Because if I return back to what you were talking about, about the broader picture, there was this acute moment, a climax of generations of oppression and this intense moment that likely was traumatic in and of itself on top of all, like the cherry on top of the mountain of trauma-
- Well, yeah.
- And urgency and clarity and then the way we observe is, oh my brain's like exploding right now, I'm so excited. Is like, so we're, so it's interesting. Like, because I wonder over time, so one just in general, the traditional, a lot of Jewish traditional holidays, it's part of the infrastructure of it is deeply patriarchal that there is an idea that certain people get to partake and the assumption intergenerationally has been that generally speaking, the women are going to do all of the labor to set up an experience that men can enjoy in, right. And so for me, right now, I'm not even fully sure where this I'm just riffing right now, right. Like, so what is a lack of narrowness look like for us today? And so back to your point about the Ethiopian tradition, which I love 'cause I've been on that tip for a while. Like when I was in college and eating in the cafeteria during Pesach after the first and second Seder, I was like, I wasn't even really aware of raw food then, but I was like, I think I should be eating lots of fresh veggies like that's the fastest food, not finding some flour somewhere and patting it down, having to carry brittle, stick like brittle large crackers, like sounds like veggies and produce and leaves are things that I should be and hummus things where you just smash stuff and mix some stuff in and it's good to go. Like that seems to me and my, and I, this was just in my mind, like I didn't feel like I, because I then, and even now I deeply respected. I think there's wisdom in tradition. And as someone who wants to help, support and encourage people as much as they are ready to, to take deeper ownership of their lives. Because I think that one of the ways that oppression operates is it's insidious and it helps us, it doesn't help us, it conditions us to not believe in our capacity in different ways and to just continually compromise. And I want us to live to still be able to compromise in various ways, but also to who live as bravely and powerfully as we can. And so it's interesting to think about some of the traditional minhags that I have wonderful memories of. So I'm, this is not an either or, and I'm not looking to condemn of like, when I think of liberation, do I think of lounging? Actually I don't, like that's a part of it. but what I think of as, like if I think about it now, liberation is connecting with people I love, doing creative things, thinking about, well, like the thriving of people I love and myself is supporting each other. So it's interesting to just think about all of that around, what in what ways, like, as a number of us are strengthening our oppression analysis and our vision of radical imagination, like us living like Kings when Kings are inherently, usually Kings and Queens based upon somebody else is suffering and free or near free underpaid labor, is that really what we want?
- Yeah, I think that's a really excellent question. And I also, the thing that I'm thinking about is that, especially when you just said, it's not either or, this came to mind, is that it's, I think ritual is amazing. It can be really energizing, it can be really powerful-
- A container for transformation. It can hold space for something.
- And also when it gets too reified, it gets-
- Or stale.
- Ossified is the word that I like, it's coming to my brain for my graduate School days-
- You said, ossified.
- Yeah, it's becomes like bone, it's like petrified. And so it becomes brittle. And I think that what I'm thinking right now is that when ritual is used as that container to do all the things that we've been talking about, then it is a generative process. But when it becomes rigid and ossified, it actually limits and prevents radical imagination so that you get to a place where people are like, what do you mean there's no brisket? It can't be passive or without brisket, you know, and you conflate the content with the markers, right, they're not the same. And there's something like really, I think there's something really interesting about that, so that maybe the practice is not to do the, you know, eat all your meals standing with your shoes on and a staff in your hand always, instead of doing the lounging, like the Romans, but maybe it's like mixing it up so that you can put those different modes and those different takes and those different lenses in conversation with one another to allow you to see what else might be possible so that you're not stuck thinking Passover equals brisket rather than Passover equals liberation and what's possible and transformation and like all of the actual abstract things the Passover brings to us.
- Yeah, and I think those things, you know, I think it achieves that. And it's interesting because I think in some ways what this is bringing up for me as someone who really loves a lot of the Passover traditions is not necessarily wanting to change that, but for us to bring a consciousness and an awareness of what certain messages those rituals convey, right. Like I am far more interested in that 40 years of walking and processing. And that was the entry, that was the portal of healing and the awareness of time and of movement and of journeying and searching and figuring things out together and having false starts, but eventually getting somewhere and figuring out how do we nourish ourselves and have fun along that journey 'cause that's whether it is that long or less time, it's gonna be that kind of journey into the wilderness of leaving what we know and what's familiar, but isn't working and is narrowness for us to start to venture and recognize that we're not necessarily losing everything. We're not actually in the desert, but we need to move beyond what's comfortable and familiar collaboratively and figure out how we hold each other in that space and that, because we aren't actually, and there here's the other thing as part of it is that we're not, especially as a black person, as a black and Cherokee and Jewish, like we're not actually free, we're not enslaved at this moment, but I actually think there is mental enslavement and internalized oppression that is happening. And so how do we think about, you know, these are things that I don't necessarily need to wrap us in a pretty bow right now, but I like the Seder as it is. And I think there's like a whole teaching and commentary around, like, this is a wonderful experience. And there's something to me about doing practices around really questioning and saying, what do we want this to teach us about liberation? And how is this helpful and how do we need to complicate or agitate some of the messaging that's coming here around the subtle pieces around who's doing the labor to enable this to happen in a specific kind of way, is that what we want? We're using a script here, but actually a lot of the most courageous liberatory work we wanna do, isn't gonna have a script. We're going to have to trust in ourselves, we're going to have to Nachshon it through. We're gonna have to Miriam it through. We're gonna have to take the instruments we have. We're going to have to take the belief we have and walk into the unknown to move out of Mizraim. And eventually there may be pillows there, but there are the ain't gonna be pillows precisely in that moment when we need to just believe in the beauty of our dreams and start moving and in that direction and trust that our partners, that the divine, that various circumstances will hopefully work in our favor and, or we will continue to learn and get better and figure out how to collaboratively move things in that direction. 'Cause I think a number of us in different ways, I know, and I'm on the cusp, I'm a frightened. And I feel like the divine in my life is saying, walk into the water. I'm like, I have a team, I have people who I'm accountable right now. Like I don't want them to, you know, I'm like standing in the water, like I don't know. And I feel like a number of people are like on the shore. And I've read this in a lot of books from a lot of different angles that often we don't wait until like the danger is right there before we are willing to do it, but what is it, but given that climate change and various issues are the crisis is underway in different ways, how can we start to be visionary and say, and practice and nurture ourselves enough that in the beauty of the dream and the clarity about the problem that we're willing to join and link arms and say, let's Miriam, Nachshon this thing out. Start singing let's move in that direction of the beauty of our dreams and adjust as we go. It's not gonna look like having a Haggadah. There's not gonna be a roadmap.
- And yeah-
- We're going to tell the story after we do it-
- There's a lot of things-
- we're only going to know after we take risks-
- There's a lot of things that aren't the same, but that doesn't mean that they're worse. I think that's another piece of the lesson, right, like-
- Can you say more about what you mean? I'm not sure what you're referring to.
- Yeah, like I make, as you know, I make challah almost every week and I've been doing it through pandemic. So it's been almost two years that I do that, maybe actually a little longer, I guess. Anyway, so when you get used to making challah every week, and then it's Passover, like what do you do? So I made matzo for two, the past two Pesach, I hope I do it again, this third. And it's not the same. It's not the same process, obviously it's not the same. But actually homemade matzo is really good. Like it's delicious. And, I guess that's what I mean, like it's the, what I am making because the circumstances have changed because we're imagining this new world, like it's different, it tastes different, it was a different process for me. And it's still good. It's just a different, good.
- Yeah, and there's a lot of Torah in that because I think so much we walk into it we think we associate difference with danger or difference with bad, as opposed to actually more likely than not, it'll be, a'ight at least, and potentially good. And we even like back and even if it's not, then we'll learn and we'll adjust-
- Right, I think even bigger than the danger and the bad, even in a less, like less scary way. Like I make challah with honey and like, I make a dairy challah with butter, and like, so it's like a sacrifice, like I'm sacrificing the sweetness and the butter 'cause you know, matzo's just... flour, water, salt, like that's it. And so it the sense that you're giving something up and therefore what you're gonna get in its place is diminished or less than, or you are diminished or less than oh, but in fact it's, again, it's different, but-
- It's different, and you're creating, and what I love about it too is you're also potentially creating space. And I find this with my decluttering and other things that I do, or when I turn down certain things that have part of what I want, but other ways it's not fully what I want and the way I practice this for years and I've taught it to some of my students and coaching clients is like, I envision it as a space that I'm leaving that says like a sacred open space. And I only let for certain things that really matter, like obviously with different things throughout the day, like that would be annoying if everything had to be, you know, the that's not, I'm often flexible, but if something matters around a job or certain things, I'm flexible about what it might look like, but I'm also willing to hold, to me basically what I'm saying is I've found from my perspective that like one could argue, right. One could philosophize or theorize that Nachshon like basically what I'm saying is like, to me in my mind, Nachshon had specific vision and he held that space in his mind's eye, even though it didn't match, but he held that space and he was clear so much so that his actions made room for that... helped actualize that moment. And I think that's true in lots of different ways in our lives, and I can't even fully say why it works or how it works. But I, you know, I had this happen with one of my coaching clients in Ko'ach, who was offered a position with a Jewish organization to do some work. And this fellow really liked the organization. And this is like making it as neutral as possible. So no one's identifiable, but had a really great history with this org and the role just didn't seem right. And I said, I know it may feel tough because you're turning down resources, but I invite you to really try this and envision in your mind's eye. It doesn't have to be everything, but the kinds of things you want and make clear in your mind that you're making space for that, and you can kindly, you know, thank them for what you know, but that it's not quite the right fit and that next week, and it doesn't always happen. But like that next week, something else that came through that was wonderfully aligned, that was better compensation. And I was like, I can't tell you how this Nachshon type thing works, but I've seen it work again and again, and being willing to trust and say, I'm willing. And part of it's about what's coming and also part of it is about us. There's a certain part of it that I think is willing to say, I'm willing to stand up for myself and say that this is, it's worth. It's worth me taking the risk to believe in this, for this potential thing that I'm hoping will come through. And either that thing or something that I need to learn, like this, something better or a lesson I need to learn on my journey to move me further in the direction of that.
- Food for thought as we prep for Passover.
- Yeah, as we continue to bring as much joy and justice into our lives as we can.
- [Tracie] Hey friends, before we sign off, I wanted to make sure you know, about Grounded and Growing, it's a new pilot program we've just launched. This six week intensive is for forward thinking justice minded folks who are ready to establish or deepen their trauma informed Jewish racial justice practice. Applications are now available and are due Thursday, April 14th. Check the link in the show notes for more information or to apply.
- [April] Thanks for tuning in, our show's theme music was composed by Elliot Hammer. You can find this track and other beats on Instagram at Elliot hammer. If this episode resonated with you, please it and subscribe. To join the conversation, visit Jewstalkracialjustice.com, where you can send us a question or suggestion, access our show notes and learn more about our team. Take care until next time and stay humble and keep going.