Ep 80: Cookies, Impact, and False Competition

Inspired by the holiday of Purim, April and Tracie use the practice of giving mishloach manot or Purim baskets, to unpack the difference between intention and impact. (Who knew you could learn so much from fruit-filled cookies?) They also interrogate the relationship between Vashti and Esther, and use them as a metaphor for differently-positioned Jewish Leaders of Color today. The megillah (Scroll of Esther) positions them as competitors, but we imagine what it would look like if they recognized they have more to gain by working together and rejecting the externally-imposed division between them. 

Check out our discussion/reflection questions for this episode: https://joyousjustice.com/blog/jews-talk-racial-justice-ep-80

Find April and Tracie's full bios and submit topic suggestions for the show at www.JewsTalkRacialJustice.com

Learn more about Joyous Justice where April is the founding and fabulous (!) director, and Tracie is a senior partner: https://joyousjustice.com/

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Read more about the practice of giving mishloach manot: https://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/purim-gifts/

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Get your tickets for the LIVE Jews Talk Racial Justice event on 3/23: https://joyous-justice.mykajabi.com/live-podcast-tickets

Transcript

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- [Tracie] This Purim, we're using hamantaschen to think about intention and impact, and also interrogating the idea that Vashti and Esther must be competitors.- [April] This is Jews Talk Racial Justice with April and Tracie.- [Tracie] A weekly show hosted by April Baskin and Tracie Guy-Decker.- [April] In a complex world, change takes courage.- [Tracie] Wholehearted relationships can keep us accountable.- Hi, Tracie.- Hey, April Happy Purim- Happy Purim, that's right. It's Purim right now. Yay! (April claps) Happy Purim, everybody. Happy Purim, Tracie.- Thanks, you too.- Purim Sameach Woo hoo!- Yeah.- It was so nice and fun listening, re-listening to our episode from last year year- From last year- And I'm so glad that we did'cause I both have new material and there was a bunch of stuff that I basically wanted to still say. (April giggles) So it was helpful to hear and be like, oh, we already (April laughs) discussed this. And I also noticed how cute we are. I was just like,(Tracie giggles)"Oh listen to our dynamic." Oh, I love us.(April and Tracie laughing)- Yeah, I had similar thoughts.- Yeah. (giggles) It's like, oh, that's right, that's why we do this. We really got something here.(April and Tracie laugh) So what's on your mind? I often lead, which is great from an equity perspective and I feel like if you have a sense, I'm happy to follow your cue. (giggles)- So I do have one like lesson that I'm thinking about this year about Purim that we didn't talk about last year. So I thought maybe--- Okay, great- Lead with that. So I was making hamantaschen this week and I was remembering I had this conversation probably 10 years ago now where we were talking about the mitzvah of giving mishloach manot the Purim baskets with the food and the halakha says you're supposed to give food ready to eat. It has to be like two different kinds of food. And I had this conversation with someone where we were talking about, okay, you know, it's one of those Talmudic kind of like halakha conversations, right? So the question was, If you give a Purim basket to someone and they are allergic to something like they cannot eat, they're allergic to something in the basket that you gave like say you gave, I gave my hamantaschen to someone who's gluten free. Have I completed the mitzvah? That was the original question. And there was a whole, and of course, you know, that's the way these halachic arguments go. Like, well, do you know that they're allergic?'Cause if you know they're allergic and you give them the gluten hamantaschen then like, no, you haven't completed the mitzvah. But then it was back and forth and at the end it was like, what if they don't even know? And the person I was conversing with said, even if they didn't know that they were allergic, if it turns out they were allergic, you did not complete the mitzvah. And I got really upset about this at the time. This was 10 years ago or so because in my mind like your, my intentions, like I gave the mishloach manot in good faith and like why should I be held accountable for something that--- We see where you're going, Tracie Guy.- They didn't even know.- Decker. (April chuckles)- And it was very upsetting to me 10 years ago, having this conversation where I... My recollection is that the halakha follows my friend, who argued that like it has to be fully edible for the person, whether or not they know that they in advance, that they're allergic to the thing in order to have fulfilled the mitzvah. And now looking back on that conversation, thinking about this, like thinking about the difference between intention and impact. Intention matters, but so does impact even if you had no way of knowing that that would be the impact in advance. Impact matters. And that feels like a really important lesson for us, for Jews Talk Racial Justice and thinking about how we move through the world. So that was a thing that we didn't talk about last year that came out of Purim study for me and has definitely I've, I was uncomfortable with this 10 years ago. And it's taken the continued work and thought and actually the racial justice work and recognizing that impact matters, deeply, even when it is not intended to help me kind of get to a place where like, right, that's the lesson.- And like, it's interesting, I think too, because or like a facet that I'm thinking about with it as someone who has a typically oodles of compassion, where there's a way in which like, from like a Joyous Justice perspective I think the comment wouldn't be quite what your friends was. It would be like, yes, that work you did was sacred. And regardless of whether it it's sacred or not, it's still not helpful to that person. And so how do we continue to iterate and help things land and connect and how can we continue to reach for connection? You know what I mean? Like, not all is lost and even like, so like about the, but your desire wasn't able to fully go through. And how do we get curious about that and all the different things that we do. But there's also a way in which I appreciate the directness of what you're saying, because for me it ties into themes around that I've been thinking about lately around re interrogating some of my compassion that I want to very much keep it, but I'm starting to notice certain spaces where it's like, it's like with a fine tooth comb where I'm like, ooh, but there's compassion here. But I'm also allowing, this is creating some space at times for me to allow mistreatment still. So how, how do I finely parse this out? And I'm not someone, although that's a very natural human thing and I've felt that at times, but through my healing and emotional processing, I'm not someone who's saying, oh, we need to totally do away with compassion. No. But I wanna refine where I am applying it. And so in this moment, even though I just said everything, I just said, I still appreciate the rigor. The rigor involved in what you shared, because there's a way where I want 10 years ago you to feel held and supported. But often that held and supported happens at the expense of the person who now has hives, not getting what they need and that doesn't have to be that way, but that's often how it plays out. And so I appreciate that sort of musar-esque counterbalancing nature of what you're saying. Of this is the principle and I struggled with it before and here it is now. And here it is again where I'm now re-encountering it. And I'm able to appreciate the Torah and the importance of that.- If it's, I think it's important to note too that when thinking about the compassion for the hamantaschen maker, that this is not and part of what was so upsetting to me 10 years ago is like I was placing a lot of focus on this single mitzvah, but it's not the only one. It's not even the only one that I have the opportunity with this specific mitzvah, right? Like Purim comes around each year. And so there will be opportunity again, to try and--- To bake more cookies. Bake for hamantaschen.- And to bake more cookies. To bake gluten free cookies for that specific friend or whatever it might be. The possibility of iteration actually is important to hold at the same moment of saying that this mitzvah was not, this specific attempt to fulfill the mitzvah was not complete. Because there will be another chance, It's not like EHH you're done, you know, game over. It's, you know, there will be additional rounds. And so I think that's been a really important piece of my coming to comfort with acknowledging that the impact must be accounted for, in addition to intention.- Right. And so side note. I just am thoroughly enjoying that we're, that you somehow manage to integrate hamantaschen into the DEI conversation so.- Intention and impact?(Tracie giggles)- Yeah. I'm thoroughly enjoying that. So I just wanna lift that up and enjoy that and savor that. I would also add, that I really loved your Facebook post about it. It was very ASMR ask, like, look at the bubbling hamantaschen fresh out of the oven.- What's ASMR?- I don't remember what it stands for. I feel like people who know know. It's the videos that are online, that people watch. People like doing these sensory things or watching someone turn something or, you know, my ex used to watch a lot of them. Like, what is that crackling? No, it's a video it's helping me sleep.- Yeah. I took 'em outta the oven and like, I could see like the jam still bubbling. And I was like, that's fascinating. So I just took a little video- Yeah. I watched a few rounds of it last night.(Tracie laughs) It was like, this is mesmerizing.- The jam is actually all my husband actually makes jam. So all of the jam that I used in our...(April mumbles) Actually it's homemade jam. Yeah.- Oh, that's amazing. Yeah. My grandma made a ton of jam. So, okay. So there's like a few different thoughts I'm thinking one I just of late I continue to in my adult life relate to Esther. Increasingly like I did when I was working at the URJ and had this prominent position as a person of color and it was, and now it's getting more nuanced and even a deeper connection around, there are parts of my identity and my life through subtly or explicitly being told by loved ones around me, that in order for you to stay safe, it's best for you not to talk about this in certain ways. And, but now I'm a fully, a grown adult who's interested in releasing my internalized depression. And it turns out that some of that internalized oppression is family contracts, quote unquote, around some of the best ways that my family today or in recent generations has found it best to survive. And I really love the Assata Shakur quote that we must love and protect each other and we have nothing to lose but our chains. And I feel like I need to write that somewhere because I really think fundamentally that actually is true, but we're conditioned through pleasure and comfort and different things and false senses of freedom and liberation to believe that that isn't the case. But I do actually believe at the end of the day, that is proFoundly true. And so I just wanna note that I really appreciate the story. And I also, as I was thinking about this, and as you were talking and we were in conversation, I started and I've been, I was thinking about all of what you were sharing and also thinking about how I relate to it. And also in the context of different coaching and mentorship relationships I have with various Jewish leaders of color, officially and unofficially that there are some common threads I'm seeing show up that also affect me that I want to name here, that I think is really interesting. And this is some fresh thinking that I'm very excited to share and dive more deeply into, even after this wonderful holiday has passed around the relationship between Vashti and Esther. In that I initially a few years ago noticed like, oh. Like, cause I never. It was interesting to me when I realized that I connected with Esther because throughout my childhood, other than when I was a little, little girl. Then I really liked princesses with long hair and I wanted to, and I would like take stick toilet paper on the end of a stick and pretend it was like a wand. I'd spin it around. And, you know, and I was really into that. But after that, like once I started to get into like fourth grade through preteen years in high school, I was much more, to quote Tori Amos, like a raisin girl, rather than a cornflake girl. I was much more like, you know, a budding feminist and so like wanting to own different things. So throughout, other than like my toddler hood, I also really liked Ariel. So like as a little kid, you know, I was really into that sort of thing. But for most of my childhood and young adult life, the princesses aren't people who I would connect to for inspiration. So it was interesting to me though to see that because that's in some ways how I was positioned, given my relative youth for the position that I was taking on. And it made sense to me in a number of ways, because of the years of work that I'd done often working two jobs to get to that point. But still I was sort of this young, fresh person and very much as Purim rolled around repeatedly over that time that I noticed like, oh yeah. And there are different things that I have been told where I started to notice these shared experiences. And then I think over time at different points in my career, I have very much felt connected to Vashti. Where things were asked of me. Thank God, not around my body, but around asking me to make compromises that I in exchange for money or continued prominence or a platform that I was being given. And for me in those roles, both of my own analysis and with the support networks I had in place, I was very clear in those moments in a way that I can project and guess perhaps this is what Vashti was thinking of. I love all these different trappings, but that isn't actually why I'm here. I've a clear sense of self worth and purpose. And I have a deep sense of commitment to my people's liberation. And if you think I'm gonna put a jewel or I'm going to accept a paycheck in exchange for me selling out my people, that's not going to happen. And what I want to say here is that I see similar-ish dynamics playing out here and to cut to the chase, I think for Jews of color and for anyone who is a part of a targeted group within another targeted group or just in general, that one of the most liberatory things we can do besides honoring each of us is for Esther And Vashti to cut through the noise and not publicly. And not even necessarily ask for permission, but find ways to connect and talk and to support one another because they are both navigating. Not identical, but very, in some cases identical around sexism and misogyny and patriarchy. They're navigating very similar things. And because of life experience, because of appearance, because of different things, other variables that may be happening, they may be making different choices, but ultimately they have a lot to align around and could greatly benefit from each other's insight and perspective and resource and help each other. Now to add this to the broader world, we're also working within the context of Jews of color, especially for black Jews. But also for Jews of color in general, that we are literally incredibly under resourced. So one thing that I want to say to my fellow Jews of color is that I can tell you for me personally, and also for a number of us. A number of us are working very diligently to get free and to create a platform and space for all of us. But because of that chronic under resourcing, it's hard for us to always be able to reach for each other, but a number of us are here. And as someone who is a Vashti, who is both, who has embodied both Esther and Vashti, I want to say to you, if I am a Vashti in your life within reason, I have pretty busy schedule, but you can reach for me. Especially if I see that you are in an Esther role, or you recently left an Esther role, and now you are in a time of Vashti dom. And there are ways for women, especially women of color, Jewish women of color, people with targeted and marginalized identities where we are given access. And one of the ways that I think of this, that I wanted to write an op-ed about this for a while that, before it felt too spicy and because I'm continuing to shed different forms of internalized oppression, starting to feel a little less spicy for me. (April laughs) To share publicly and just share, you know, but I see a dynamic playing out that I would call neo-plantationism. So this is specifically referencing a black enslavement dynamic, but I'm noticing there's a pattern at times. And you could say that a version of this was playing out with Vashti and Esther, where it's like, oh, we're giving you access but it's entirely on our terms and don't get too big for your britches. Oh, you actually wanna have boundaries round your body? Hah, you're out. Oh you wanna have boundaries about the integrity that you bring to your job and certain things that you are not willing to forsake? That's not gonna fly. And we're conditioned and so many of us, in different ways are conditioned to think that it's just us, but it isn't. It's actually a pattern. I informally came up with this title and I figured somebody had already thought of this and I looked it up and they haven't. But like, I refer to it as neo-plantationism where there's an expectation of we're making so much progress and we let you into the big house. But now you start now you're starting to have opinions. Hah! Man! Just 'cause we congratulated you and said you were intelligent doesn't mean we actually fully, this is the subtext. People don't say this, but we actually fully respect you and we will just as you are replaceable. You are replaceable. And what I want to say is that is the oppression speaking. That is the internalization that folks in oppressor and conformity roles have taken on. But that isn't actually the truth of our existence. We each are incredibly divine, sacred beings as all humans are and explicitly actually in certain ways because of our targeting and oppression and our survival through that that makes us more divine. It makes us worthy of profound love. And so I wanna invite folks as you're navigating things to notice at times, are you in more of a Vashti role or an Esther role and what is a different sort of role that you want? You know, whether that's a leader in our world today, or a name, as Sasha Fierce, whatever your alter ego is that you wanna give a name to. Right. For me, I often like to channel my Hebrew name Rakefet which is a cyclamen or another loose translation is a flower that grows in a Rocky place, right? Like that name encapsulates a lot. For me of there may be stone and pain around me and I'm going to thrive. I'm gonna find that little sliver of sun and then I'm gonna work on expanding that sliver into a valley so that more of us can thrive. Right? And I think we get to push back. And also at times notice when those dynamic are happening and one of the cores ways we can push back is by, and if we're in either or role as we have resource, which is tricky. So also don't be hard on yourself 'cause I have this too. As much as I can. I reach and respond to folks. And I also need to, with the under resourcing and chronic oppressive dynamics I'm navigating also make a way and that's its own body of work. But that we can continue to contradict this by reaching out. And so I would explicitly encourage my Jewish leaders of color. And for those of you who are listening, who aren't a Jewish leaders of color, who also see how you have another targeted identity where this dynamic is playing out, this goes for you too.'Cause it's a tried and true oppression playbook move, right? Is with a number of folks. And I even, I have to remind myself of this and I've gotten lots of help and support and thinking around this in training,'cause I've taken the time to reach for those things. Is even a single conversation because I find when I've been in that Esther role at times it's scary. And we've been given messages either directly, explicitly or subtly about your predecessor and the problem and oh, what a problem Vashti was. And oh, she was always so difficult. Really? 'Cause I thought she was living in this castle for several years and y'all used to sing her praises. Right? And you don't need to say that to them or to the king or whoever's in the king role, but we can reach for email and phone and interconnectedness we have with each other and start to connect offline. And even a singular conversation can open up different possibilities and perspectives when we start to reach for each other and no longer let those who we often love but also are some of the most significant purveyors of our oppression in our community, dictate the terms of the kinds of relationships we can have with those with whom we share identity. And that's one of a number of different ways we can start to get free.- I think that's exactly this, the story is really illustrative of that, right. The structure of the way the story has presented it, the only relationship that Esther has with Vashti or any of the other maidens who were in the running to be Vashti's successor, was that of competitor. Right? Like the--- Yes. Mm hmm.- The people in power set it up so that all the women would be competitors with one another. But what you're saying April is that we don't have to accept that relationship as given. We can break that mold. We can say like, no that's not my competitor. Like I know where the real(Tracie giggles) structures are and where the real power is. And, I reject that idea that this person is my competitor. And rather, they are my sibling or whatever.- Yeah. They're my sibling. They're my potential friend.- The more liberatory relationship.- They are the person who likely, if I look around and I see a number of things where there's lots of progress that needs to be made, but I also feel pretty comfortable. I can acknowledge likely that predecessor had something to do with making the space so that I feel comfortable right now. And that there is an interconnectedness and we each get to decide depending upon.'Cause I think that's also part of the resistance is it's not saying inherently, which is another way oppression can work of like oh, you're all the same. And you're all meant to be best friends. Mm mm. That's not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is that, as you said, there's a sibling hood and there's an interconnectedness around different elements of things that we share and likely similar experiences that we've had and us bringing our minds together can only help to serve our liberation and also doing so on our terms. We can tell the people in the castle that we're doing that. We also don't have to. Part a key part of movement building work is determining what's known externally and also what we need in the things that we can do to take care of ourselves.'Cause you best believe the people in the castle and other successful liberation movements have absolutely taken on ownership of that part of their liberation to begin, to start to set the terms with whom they get to be in relationship. And also who needs to know and who doesn't need to know? And not from a place of dishonesty, but in a place of beginning to or sensing without even fully knowing intuiting that the climate we're navigating is quote unquote, continually getting better. But if you don't feel safe around sharing certain things with folks... Unless it relates to your job and you need to be transparent and honest 'bout that. But if it's about you getting the resource you need, that's for you to decide. And you can still be fully loyal to the context in which you're operating and also be loyal to yourself and to a body of work that helped each of us get to where we are and that we want to continue to feed that body of work of liberation and liberatory work in service of our specific liberation and also broader collective liberation. So I am here for Vashti and Esther breaking tradition and meeting behind the castle, reaching, taking out their cell phones. Which they didn't have at that time and saying,"Hey, I'm sure we're each navigating different things, but when it makes sense, let's talk.'Cause it's see, I've been through something and I know you've been through something and I think we can support each other and we can just have a conversation and that can be sacred. And from there we can figure out where to go, but our liberation is bound up together. So let's reach through all of the real oppressive reasons not to let's reach for each other."- Whew!- Happy Purim, y'all.- Happy hamantaschen eating. Yay! Haman, boo!(Tracie giggles)(April gurgling)(April laughing)(Tracie laughing) It sounded more like gurgling but you know. (April laughs)- It's a organic grogger. I also wanna name that we are having a live event next week and you can come.- Yes, we are. We are. If you're not already on our email list, you should go to joyousjustice.com and you'll have a little popup window where you can sign up for list because we're going to be sending up specific updates about that very exciting event. And, or also you can join us on Facebook at Joyously Pursuing Racial Justice, A private Facebook group, where you can join. You can also get more information about the event there and yeah. Yay. It's gonna be fun.- [April] Thanks for tuning in our show's theme. Music was composed by Elliot Hammer. You can find this track and other beats on Instagram @ElliotHammer. If this episode resonated with you, please share it and subscribe. To join the conversation, visit Jewstalkracialjustice.com where you can send us a question or suggestion, access our show notes and learn more about our team. Take care until next time and stay humble and keep going.